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cleopatra-elizabeth taylor movie
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
neseret wrote:
Hate to correct here, but Caesar's villa was outside of the city, across the Tiber. According to Roman law, the city of Rome had a sacred wall called the "pomerium" with many kinds of restrictions and one of them was that no crowned head could pass through it. ...

Arsinoë, her sister passed through it ... Wink Cool

Seriously, I think it is very unlikely that Cleopatra during her visit never entered the city. For example, as a statue of her in the Temple of the Venus Genetrix, the mythical ancestor of the Julians, on the Forum Iulium was erected. An also equally unprecedented action, which recognized the divinity of a foreign monarch as the incarnation of Isis (Roman Venus).


Well, obviously Arsinoë IV was not a crowned head of state when she passed through the gates as part of Caesar's captured enemies. Wink

The statue of Cleopatra VII as Venus had a great deal of criticism during the day, by a number of Roman writers. Caesar set it up there, not only to honour Cleopatra as Isis (with whom she claimed mutual identity), but to solidify the myth that the Julian clan claim had direct descent from Venus. In all, it was a reckless gesture of homage to install a life-size golden statue of Cleopatra/Isis in the temple of his family forum, next to the statue of Venus Genetrix, from whom the Julian clan claimed descent. But, in exalting Cleopatra, an infatuated Caesar also put her in her place—forever, it turns out—as a love goddess.

Later writers state that, deprived of this march of the physical body of Cleopatra VII through the streets of Rome as his captive, Octavian/Augustus Caesar had instead her image destroyed in Rome. There is debate as to whether this was the same golden statue in the temple of Venus Genetrix, but it seems likely, as Rome was also suffering economic problems during the early Empire period, so Octavian/August Caesar could order its destruction as a member of the Julian clan and even justify the destruction in order to fill the Roman coffers with gold.

However, a statue is not the same as the queen entering the city, in violation of Roman law, and she was - as she was throughout her life after meeting Caesar - a crowned head of state. So, in this case, I think her being set up in Caesar's villa across the Tiber, away from the city does on the whole seem more likely, but this did not prevent her image from being conveyed back by writers (and probably artists) for the consuming curiosity of the Roman masses.

HTH.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
... However, a statue is not the same as the queen entering the city, in violation of Roman law, and she was - as she was throughout her life after meeting Caesar - a crowned head of state. So, in this case, I think her being set up in Caesar's villa across the Tiber, away from the city does on the whole seem more likely, ...

And Caesar's policy aimed ultimately then also to be a crowned head within the walls of Roms... What probably was ultimately the decisive reason for the assassin.

That her official residence was outside the walls has certainly not prevented her to participate in official and private events in the city themselves. As already said, and also with a view to the political objectives of the couple (which are quite clear, I think), I think it is still absolutely unlikely that she has never set foot in the city.

Greetings, Lutz.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
That her official residence was outside the walls has certainly not prevented her to participate in official and private events in the city themselves. As already said, and also with a view to the political objectives of the couple (which are quite clear, I think), I think it is still absolutely unlikely that she has never set foot in the city.


Not to disagree with your assessment, but please name the "...official and private events" she attended in Rome (and please cite the ancient authors who wrote of it, as I see no evidence there that she was ever inside the city of Rome).

Thanks.
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evarelap
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:

Not to disagree with your assessment, but please name the "...official and private events" she attended in Rome (and please cite the ancient authors who wrote of it, as I see no evidence there that she was ever inside the city of Rome).

Thanks.


So if no one ever writes about you setting foot in Egypt means you never set foot in Egypt? When was the last time you visited Egypt, and someone wrote about it?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

evarelap wrote:
neseret wrote:

Not to disagree with your assessment, but please name the "...official and private events" she attended in Rome (and please cite the ancient authors who wrote of it, as I see no evidence there that she was ever inside the city of Rome).

Thanks.


So if no one ever writes about you setting foot in Egypt means you never set foot in Egypt? When was the last time you visited Egypt, and someone wrote about it?


Hmm: I would say earlier this year was when I visited, and authors include my University, my college, and my two supervisors, not to mention family and friends. This doesn't include my own personal journals. It was fairly well-known.

Had Cleopatra VII appeared within the city - as a crowned head of state, mind you - in violation of the "pomerium" prohibition - trust me, as much vilification that was thrust upon her by the Romans, it WOULD have been noted.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The history is written by the winner, in this case Octavian and his pendants. That the Roman authors give a very one-sided and wrong picture of Cleopatra and her intentions is indisputed, I think.

Octavians political position is in large part determined by the fact that he occurs as the inheritant and (adoptive) son of Caesar. Thus he has an existential interest in its posthumous reputation. Everything which could harm this was therefore ignored. Cleopatra was at the invitation of Caesar in Rome. He has erected the statue of the Queen as Isis in the temple of his ancestors...

What precisely was the intended of the rule of the kings ban within the city walls? If they really discourage foreign potentates? I do not think so, that does not really make sense. In my opinion, it was directed surely clearly against a Roman king and defended the Republic.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found it fascinating how much was made of Cleopatra when I visited the Turkish Med coast (Antalya to Alanya with Side in the middle) in the last couple of years - lots of little archeological treasures to see there, and lots of colourful stories about how Cleopatra visited the region to meet with Mark Antony for the first time. Funny how Cleopatra having supposedly visited a place makes it a tourist attraction, not the waterfall, beach or ancient city itself.
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