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Unknown determinative/hieroglyph

 
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 10:22 pm    Post subject: Unknown determinative/hieroglyph Reply with quote

Hi,

I was wondering what is the last hieroglyph, which appears to bear Gardiner T136?




Maybe it's defined in the Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch-Deutsch.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upon additional searching, it seems the aforementioned hieroglyph to be a variant of the fishing net. The various extremities being weights (stones) for sinking the net into water and the others being handles for the fishermen.

I have no idea for now what it could mean in the given context, but I know enemies are often assimilated as "fishes": powerless, fleeing and easily caught (quelled). Perhaps, it is a royal figure of speech to emphasize the immense power of the king (here being Psamtik II).

The actual photograph, depite its high quality and zoom, doesn't help much.



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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this...

http://jsesh.qenherkhopeshef.org/en/signlib/showCollection/39?page=20


V110 and variants of it.


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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or could it be the jar stand (W11) ?



To be honest, according to the proposed transliteration...I don't even understand why the hyphen between "r" and "s(y)".
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't help you with the translation, but where is the inscription from?
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Can't help you with the translation, but where is the inscription from?


Victory Stela of Psamtik II (a.k.a. Shellal Stela of Psamtik II).
It commemorates his victory over the Kushites on his third regnal year. It is the war where the Napatan dynasty got crushed by the Egyptians, their monuments defaced and the government shifted southward.

This thread is in fact an extension of that one.

Literature:


Most complete reference would be Hassan Bakry's article in Oriens Antiquus Vol. 6, which I shall request/import from another Canadian province once time is adequate.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! Having been away for about a year I had not seen that post.
Very nice facsimile by the way!
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:33 am    Post subject: Update Reply with quote

I am starting to doubt about the identity of the unknown hieroglyph:



It was thought to be some kind of fish net. Ignoring the identity of the said determinative, I focused on the transliteration: r-sy.

It seems to be sometimes a compound and sometimes not; hence the hyphen. Transliterations varying depending of the transliteration systems:

r-sy, rsy, r3-sj, r3-sy or rsj.
Meaning: at all, entirely.







Using more sources about the surrounding context, it becomes:


However, I haven't seen a different orthography besides the determinative of road N31.
Could the actual blob of carving being N31? Where are the two strikes then?
Late Egyptian is alien.
Idea
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Update Reply with quote

Medjay Archer wrote:
... Late Egyptian is alien. Idea

Maybe of interest ...

Francois Neveu : The Language of Ramesses - Late Egyptian Grammar. - Oxford : Oxbow Books, 2015. - ISBN : 9781782978688. - 282 p.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:56 am    Post subject: Re: Update Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Medjay Archer wrote:
... Late Egyptian is alien. Idea

Maybe of interest ...

Francois Neveu : The Language of Ramesses - Late Egyptian Grammar. - Oxford : Oxbow Books, 2015. - ISBN : 9781782978688. - 282 p.

Greetings, Lutz.


Thanks for the suggestion and also for summoning Michael Tilgner on my case. However, I was wrong in my assumption and that explains how a book on Middle Egyptian was working so well on the texts I currently studied.
The writing is qualified as "Late Middle Egyptian" according to Mr. Tilgner. "Late Egyptian" is drastic by grammar differences...likely due to the various influences by foreigners with well established writing systems (Greek, Persia, etc.).
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are updates about the unknown hieroglyph/determinative (if being one)

Aset wrote:


Now i think it is a variant of N31 or an damaged N31!
The word is rsj (/ rsy, r-sy, rA-sj, rA-sy) a postpositive particle for the intensification of the negation.
(Wb 2, 453, II)
The writing without the two strokes is documented.



An example from TLA in French):

Arrow rs(y) after a negation

So it seems to me that your translation is correct. pharaohthumb

Aset


On the other hand, Michael Tilgner raised the point of Hassan Bakry, the first Egyptologist who worked with the Shellâl Stela. Even Bakry is uncertain about it.



Until I get my hand on "Living in the Past" by Peter Der Manuelian where the latest interpretation of the text is delivered, this is the farthest point it can be reached about the identity of the hieroglyph.

One step further is either speculation or the domain of true veterans in Ancient Egyptian epigraphy. It's beyond my capacity.
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Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep
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