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Thutmosis III - Trustworthy?
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way Kings lost the throne aside from death was if they were usurped (Seti II). Once Hatchepsut took the step to change from Queen Regnant to King there was no going back I suppose. There must have been very good reasons for her to do that, not least to have real authority in matters of internal politics. It can't have been as easy as it seems, there must hand been challenges from parties that didn't agree with Hatchepsut.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
A mentor, but the fact that she remained on the throne until he was well into adulthood indicates that she may have held him back. They may have reasoned at the time that it made sense to maintain the dual rulership; that's what happened anyway, as evidenced by the majority of courtiers continuing under Tuthmosis, a notable exception being Senenmut.


Actually there are some indications that Senenmut too may have also continued in office in the sole reign of Thutmose III, at least for a short time. One of his statues, one found in Thutmose III's temple Djeser Akhet, bear Thutmose III's cartouche but not that of Hatshepsut. There is also another which has the cartouches of Thutmose III and Neferure but not Hatshepsut. In addition he seems to have been involved in the construction of the VI pylon, usually thought to have dated from early in the sole reign of Thutmose III though it could have started in Hatshepsut's last years.

At any rate, the transition between Hatshepsut and Thutmose III is a pretty murky period and Thutmose, great king that he was, seems to have been determined in his later years to obscure the whole thing even more in his efforts to (depending on your perspective) rewrite history, or bring the actual events of his early life and reign in concordance with Maat.

JJ Shirley gives a good up to date discussion of this in The Power of the Elite: The Officials of Hatshepsut’s Regency and Coregency. JJ Shirley, Journal of Egyptian History.

Free Download link here for that and the rest of the articles in Creativity and Innovation in the Reign of Hatshepsut (2014): https://oi.uchicago.edu/research/publications/saoc/saoc-69-creativity-and-innovation-reign-hatshepsut
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Unas
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Actually there are some indications that Senenmut too may have also continued in office in the sole reign of Thutmose III, at least for a short time.


That's very interesting. With a little imagination, you can make some connections to modern situations, i.e. a new CEO trying to 'revise' a company and debating which staff members to keep and which to excuse...

Senenmut would've been skillful in his job, but perhaps not entirely "on board" with the new king? Of course that is just speculation on my part.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other factor is people's career and lifespans. Tuthmosis was unquestionably young (20s) at the time he became sole ruler, and the younger generation of courtiers he grew up with will have started to take over the roles that their older relatives or mentors had. Hatchepsut's court supporters were men who had been in office in some cases since Amenhotep I, so naturally a change of generation was due by the time of her death.

Senenmut doesn't seem to have been a young man.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senenmut was probably more personally loyal to Neferure than to the king. We have no idea what happened to her, except that she was likely alive and still in the office of God's Wife until year 23 or so. Thutmose III's first attested Great Wife was Satiah who was the daughter of Iput, one of the king's nurses, a lady who may (or may not) have been married to Ahmose Pen-Nekhbet, also one of Neferure's tutors. Satiah's name replaced Neferure's on at least one post Hatshepsut monument which hints at what?

Seriously, if you let speculation run wild here you could come up with some scenarios straight out of Game of Thrones.
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Chepses
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
I've been working on an historical novel which culminates in the Battle of Megiddo so I've been researching the subject in order to be able to put myself into the scene.

While we'll probably never know how close to the truth (our idea of the truth--not the Egyptian truth) this story lies there are ways to check some of the details. For example Thutmose III's account tells how long for it took for his army to go from Tjaru to Gaza and then on to Megiddo. Comparing the distances traveled with the known capabilities of other unmechanized armies, e.g. Roman legions shows that the Egyptian army could have, with good planning, made the journey in the time specified. The terrain described is a pretty good match for the actual area around Megiddo. Mind you there's a modern four lane highway going through the Aruna pass these days but there's a pretty cool account written in 1913 by Harold Hayden Nelson who followed the then primitive route on foot. Nelson's "Battle of Megiddo" is available on Google Books and is a pretty good read. Of course Roman engineers had put a road through there two thousand before Nelson made his journey so it's likely that the Egyptian army went down a path that was even more primitive. There was one point near Megiddo which was very steep and narrow and in Nelson's day was a favorite ambush point for local outlaws.

Where the Egyptian account becomes suspect is the part where the king lays out his plan to take narrow pass and his generals pretty much go all weak in the knees. "Don't make us go down this dangerous road!" The king of course displays daring, leadership and a godlike confidence and tells his generals that he will go down the dangerous path alone if he has to. Naturally the generals give in.

This is a great story but it is also a stereotyped story, a royal story a Konigsnovelle. Thutmose III is doing what a pharaoh does, even it it seems reckless and crazy. Damn it he has Amun Ra, Montu, Horus and Sekhmet at his side so he can afford to be reckless. Even if the reality was that the road was wide and easy or the king in reality said, OK you guys have a point, there is no way that he could never admit it. A pharaoh can't be a wuss.

Now maybe Thutmose really did stare down his generals and led his troops single file through the Aruna pass. I'd love to think he did. On the other hand there's no proof that he didn't do it either so we're back to square one . Hopefully this one can get over that third world did.

Here's the link for "Nelson's Battle of Megiddo" https://books.google.com/books?id=TN0VAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=Battle+of+Megiddo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jbFvVdSlEqqwsATanIHYBQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Battle%20of%20Megiddo&f=false


Since I'm working on my Master Thesis and the main theme is Sekhmet and her influence on political and military decisions of Ancient Egypt, I'm studying all A.E. sources that mention her. However, I never found any reference about Sekhmet in the battle of Meggido. Can you tell me where did you read it? Since you say that amongst other gods, Thutmose III had Sekhmet on his side. I know that in the taking of Joppa he calls for her, but, as said, I didn't found a reference about it on Meggido.
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