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Ay and Nefertiti
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Lutz!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 24, No. 11, Part 2 : The EgyptianExpedition 1928-1929 (Nov., 1929), pp. 35-49

gives the report and the drawings by N. de Garis Davies from TT 120 - Aanen.

The Bulletin is also available via JSTOR, I have full text access (PDF download) with my Berlin State Library account.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:12 pm    Post subject: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Many people on this forum question whether Yuya was a Hurrian from northern Syria, rather than being a native Egyptian. Rather than trying to answer in this one post all the many good questions that have been raised in this regard, let me here simply set forth some relevant facts (and my comments thereon) from various scholarly works that have commented on this subject.

A. Arielle P. Kozloff, Amenhotep III: Egypt’s Radiant Pharaoh (2012)

P. 102: “Yuya’s mummy…has aquiline features with a prominent, hooked nose similar to the profiles of eastern foreigners painted on tomb walls in Dynasty 18 and dissimilar from traditional Egyptian faces. …Mitanni was the Kentucky of its day, where some of the ancient world’s finest and swiftest horses were bred and trained.”

P. 104: “The handsome light chariot found in the couple’s tomb is symbolic of his [Yuya’s] expertise. Perhaps he was one of the princely maryannu cavaliers brought into Egypt by Amenhotep’s predecessors, or he may have been one of the Naharin blue bloods who traveled to bring gifts, including horses, to Thutmose IV, an event celebrated on the walls of nobles’ tombs. The topography surrounding Akhmim [where Yuya lived] was perfect for the horse industry. …In antiquity, it would have been a likely spot for relocating some of the maryannu and setting up equestrian facilities.”

B. Amenhotep III: Perspectives on His Reign, edited by David O’Connor and Eric H. Cline (2001)

(1) Lawrence M. Berman, “Overview of Amenhotep III and His Reign”

P. 5: “Yuya’s other titles are ‘master of the horse’ and ‘His Majesty’s lieutenant commander of chariotry”, “priest of Min”, and “overseer of cattle of Min, lord of Akhmim’. …The many different spellings of his name suggest that it is a non-Egyptian name, and that Yuya might have been, if not a foreigner himself, at least of foreign origin, but that is far from certain.”

P. 14: “What comes next…[in] the large group (fifty-six examples) of scarabs recording the parentage of Tiyi and the limits of the Egyptian Empire…refers specifically to the queen: ‘Her father’s name is Yuya; her mother’s name is Tuya; she is the wife of a mighty king, whose southern border is at Karoy and whose northern is (at) Naharin.’ The expression ‘from Karoy to Naharin’ was already somewhat of a cliché by the time of Amenhotep III, denoting the extreme southern and northern limits of the Egyptian Empire. The mention of the queen’s parents (here and on the [Mitannian princess bride] Gilukhepa scarab) is unparalleled in ancient Egyptian history, as is the definition of the boundaries of the realm in terms of the queen, putting her on a level with her husband.”

If Yuya was a native Egyptian commoner, why would his name figure so prominently on these scarabs? If Queen Tiye were not a Hurrian by patrilineal descent (her father Yuya being a Hurrian from northern Syria, though not necessarily from Mitanni), why would this scarab be the only time in Egyptian history when the boundaries of Egypt, particularly the nebulous northern border with the Hurrian state of Naharin/Mitanni, were defined in terms of the queen? If Yuya and Queen Tiye were not Hurrians, why would both of their names appear on a scarab regarding Amenhotep III’s Mitannian/Hurrian princess bride Gilukhepa? (See #3 below.) Yuya’s great importance, as the head of Egyptian chariotry at a time when the finest charioteers in the world were Hurrians (maryannu), is manifest by the cardinal fact that Yuya is buried in the Valley of Kings. (See #2 below.) The logical reason why Yuya and Queen Tiye are so extraordinarily prominent in the reign of Amenhotep III is that they were Hurrians, who as such were important to Egypt at that time for two separate reasons: (i) they were a valuable link, by ethnicity if not by royal bloodline, to Egypt’s greatest ally of the day -- the Hurrian great power state of Mitanni in northeast Syria; and (ii) it was Yuya’s expertise in Hurrian charioteer techniques that was integral to the attempt to keep Egypt’s military up to par with the Mitanni and Hittite armies.

(2) Arielle P. Kozloff, “The Decorative and Funerary Arts During the Reign of Amenhotep III”

P. 119: “Even richer was the burial equipment of Yuya and Tuya, Amenhotep III’s in-laws. Yuya had a set of three anthropoid coffins, each more sumptuous than the next. The outer one is covered with black bitumen, with bands of inscription and figures of the gods in gold leaf over gesso; the middle one is covered with silver leaf, with inscriptions and figures of the gods in gold; and the inner one is entirely covered with gold.”

Yuya seems to have been a very important person. Other than being a Hurrian with invaluable Hurrian charioteer expertise, what else would account for Yuya’s tremendous importance in the reign of Amenhotep III?

(3) Kenneth A. kitchen, “Amenhotep III and Mesopotamia”

P. 257: “In the next generation, the relatively young Amenhotep III had in turn requested the hand of a daughter of the next Mitannian king, Šuttarna I, reputedly sending her after the fifth and sixth time of asking. This happy royal international event is securely dated for us to year 10 of Amenhotep III (ca. 1382 B.C.) by one of his series of commemorative scarabs. ‘Year 10 under the Majesty…of Amenhotep III, and the Great Queen Tiyi, whose father is Yuya and mother Tuya – marvels that were brought to his Majesty: the daughter of Šuttarna, Ruler of Naharin [= Mitanni], Giluk(h)epa, and the chief ladies of her harem, 317 women.’ ”

When Amenhotep III receives a super-expensive Mitannian princess bride, Gilukhepa, why is Yuya mentioned? Isn’t it to emphasize that although Amenhotep III was pleased to have a new Hurrian princess bride from Mitanni, he already had both (i) an ethnic Hurrian bride (by patrilineal descent via Yuya, whose Hurrian name “Yuya” thus needs to be set forth), namely his original main wife #1/Queen Tiye, and (ii) a Hurrian ‘master of the horse’ and ‘His Majesty’s lieutenant commander of chariotry”, namely the Hurrian Yuya? If that is not the case, then why mention the name of Yuya when Amenhotep III receives a Hurrian princess bride from Mitanni?

C. Cyril Aldred, Akhenaten King of Egypt (1988)

P. 96: “Yuya proved to be a man of striking appearance, fairly tall for an Egyptian, with a large head of wavy white hair, a prominent beaky nose and thick fleshy lips. His unusual physiognomy, and the various spellings of his name, which was probably a pet form of a more orthodox name, induced some earlier Egyptologists to accredit him with a foreign origin. As Yuya was the Commander of the Chariotry, it is not improbable that he may have inherited some Asiatic blood, together with his calling, for Asiatics had had the reputation of being skilled in the government of horses since the incorporation of chariot forces into the Egyptian armies from the beginning of the Eighteenth Dynasty. His wife, Tuyu, was [by contrast] typically Egyptian in appearance….”

D. Nicholas Reeves, Akhenaten Egypt’s False Prophet (2001)

Pp. 54-55: “As the issue of this, the so-called ‘Marriage Scarab’ [referenced in #B1 above], reveals, by their mention Yuya and Tjuyu can have been no ordinary commoners, but individuals of immense influence in Egypt at this time; and we may assume that it was in the interests of the child-king’s supporters to acknowledge the couple’s backing for the new regime in the most public manner possible. This conclusion finds confirmation in the fact that, in another issue of scarabs publicizing the king’s marriage to the Mitannian princess Gilukhepa Year 10, Tiye’s parentage is once more, and quite gratuitously, emphasized.”

If Yuya’s great importance was not as a Hurrian with invaluable Hurrian chariotry skills, then why was the commoner Yuya considered all-important?

P. 57: “…‘master of horse’ and ‘his majesty’s lieutenant-commander of chariotry’ -- which titles have occasionally been cited as further indications of Yuya’s origins as a high-ranking Syrian maryannu (chariot warrior).”

E. Donald B. Redford, Akhenaten The Heretic King (1984)

P. 36: “[Queen Tiye was the] daughter of a foreigner named Yuya who had become a lieutenant general of chariotry in the Egyptian armed forces….”

F. Joyce Tyldesley, Nefertiti (1999)

P. 22: “[W]hile Yuya has been interpreted as having an unusual, almost European, physiognomy, Thuyu is generally regarded as a typical Egyptian woman.”

G. Margaret Bunson, Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2014)

P. 436: “Yuya was the Master of Horse of royal cavalry, and a general officer of chariot units. He…was not Egyptian…but came from the Hurrian region of modern Syria.”

* * *

Let me close with some facts about Amarna Letter EA 26. That is the only Amarna Letter sent to a queen: Hurrian king Tushratta of Mitanni sent this letter to Queen Tiye. That alone suggests that this Hurrian king may have felt a special attachment to Queen Tiye, who (on my view) was an ethnic Hurrian by patrilineal descent.

But note a second important point here, which too often has been overlooked. Queen Tiye was in the habit of corresponding directly with Hurrian Queen Yuni of Mitanni! Here are lines 58-63 of what Hurrian king Tushratta writes to Queen Tiye in Amarna Letter EA 26: “May your own messengers go regularly…to Yuni, my wife, and may the messengers of Yuni, my wife, go regularly to you.”

All of the above strongly suggests that Yuya was a Hurrian maryannu charioteer, whose daughter Queen Tiye was a Hurrian by patrilineal descent.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Jim Stinehart wrote:
... All of the above strongly suggests that Yuya was a Hurrian maryannu charioteer, whose daughter Queen Tiye was a Hurrian by patrilineal descent.

Only if you want that it "suggests" it ... But for all above there are also other and usually several, at least as good if not better, explanations.

As already said, only "relative phrases" ... And that a serious Egyptologist in his works also former or other views on certain topics mentions, should be self-evident. But proved is thus absolutely nothing.

Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

What was the real reason why Tiye, a commoner who may have been about age 12 at the time, was selected to be the next queen of Egypt at the time that a young Amenhotep III was being selected as Egypt’s next king? Yes, the key power brokers may have considered young Tiye to be beautiful, and intelligent, and even level-headed; and Yes, Tiye turned out to be a fine Queen of Egypt. Nevertheless, Tiye’s own personal merits likely were a secondary (if valuable) consideration in the decision to make her the next queen of Egypt.

Two scarabs pretty much tell us the real reason why Tiye was selected to be Egypt’s next Queen:

(i) “Her father’s name is Yuya; her mother’s name is Tuya; she is the wife of a mighty king, whose southern border is at Karoy and whose northern is (at) Naharin.”

(ii) “Year 10 under the Majesty…of Amenhotep III, and the Great Queen Tiyi, whose father is Yuya and mother Tuya – marvels that were brought to his Majesty: the daughter of Šuttarna, Ruler of Naharin [= Mitanni], Giluk(h)epa, and the chief ladies of her harem, 317 women.”

As Lawrence M. Berman noted (quoted in my prior post): “The mention of the queen’s parents (here and on the [Mitannian princess bride] Gilukhepa scarab) is unparalleled in ancient Egyptian history, as is the definition of the boundaries of the realm in terms of the queen, putting her on a level with her husband.”

You see, the #1 attribute that young Tiye brought to the table was precisely that she was the daughter of Yuya, who was considered the most valuable official in all of Egypt. By agreeing to have his young daughter Tiye become the next Queen of Egypt, Yuya thereby guaranteed to one and all that (a) he would remain as ‘master of the horse’ and ‘His Majesty’s lieutenant commander of chariotry” for Egypt, (b) he would not seek to become Pharaoh himself, and (c) he would not hire himself out to a higher bidder for his services from any other country.

At pp. 54-55 of "Akhenaten Egypt’s False Prophet" (2001), Nicholas Reeves practically says as much: “As the issue of this, the so-called ‘Marriage Scarab’, reveals, by their mention Yuya and Tjuyu can have been no ordinary commoners, but individuals of immense influence in Egypt at this time; and we may assume that it was in the interests of the child-king’s supporters to acknowledge the couple’s backing for the new regime in the most public manner possible. This conclusion finds confirmation in the fact that, in another issue of scarabs publicizing the king’s marriage to the Mitannian princess Gilukhepa Year 10, Tiye’s parentage is once more, and quite gratuitously, emphasized.”

What was the source of Yuya’s “immense influence in Egypt at this time”? It must have been that as an ethnic Hurrian from northern Syria, Yuya was, in all of Egypt, the most adept person at training Egyptian charioteers in the critical, all-important Hurrian maryannu skills of charioteering.

Yuya was all-important. It was an absolute necessity that Yuya’s continued service to Egypt as an invaluable Hurrian charioteer par excellence must be maintained intact. The solution then was obvious: name his daughter, Tiye, as Egypt’s next Queen.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, your novelistic narrative does unfortunately not fit in important points to archaeological reality. Specifically and in particular to the archaeological prooved high technological default of the Ancient Egyptian chariots, at least since Thutmose III. Just, for the umpteenth time, to name one of these points...

Lutz


"Building Pharaoh's Chariot" (TV-Documentary, 2013)


"First International Chariot Conference - Schedule and Abstracts" (2012)
Quote:
Roberto Díaz Hernández : The Role of the War Chariot in the Formation of the Egyptian Empire in the Early 18th Dynasty

"It is well-known that the invention of the war chariot between the Middle and the New Kingdom was a major change in military technology.
However, little attention has been paid to its importance in the formation of the Egyptian Empire at the beginning of the New Kingdom.
To fill this gap, I will first examine the role of the war chariot in Egyptian victories recorded in autobiographies such as that of Ahmose, son
of Ibana, and in royal annals such as those of Thutmose III’s inscriptions. I will then compare the Asiatic and the Egyptian chariots and their use in order to spot any relevant differences which could explain the Egyptians’ victories over their Asiatic enemies.
Lastly I will argue that the Egyptians improved a decisive war machine (probably taken from the Asiatic peoples coming to Egypt in the Second Intermediate Period), which they put to good use to expel the Hyksos and, above all, to set the basis of a great empire."



"Chasing Chariots - Proceedings of the First International Chariot Conference" (Ed. André J. Veldmeijer / Salima Ikram. - Cairo, 2013)


"The Egyptian Chariotry During the New Kingdom" (Matei Traian Tichindelean, Liverpool University)
Quote:
Page 24 : "... Battle scenes from Thutmose II’s mortuary temple on the West Bank depict more fighting against the Asiatic forces. The surviving fragments allow us to reconstruct both Asiatic and Egyptian chariots of the time. The scene shows the emergence of the six spoke Egyptian chariot, in contrast to the Asiatic four spoke wheel. The introduction of the six spoke wheel appears earlier in royal depictions than it does on private tomb scenes. ..."

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:54 pm    Post subject: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Lutz:

You wrote: “As I said, your novelistic narrative does unfortunately not fit in important points to archaeological reality. Specifically and in particular to the archaeological prooved high technological default of the Ancient Egyptian chariots, at least since Thutmose III.”

Lutz, you are overrating Egyptian chariotry. As I mentioned in a previous post, from the Amarna Letters we know that (i) Egyptian archers, but never Egyptian chariots, were highly respected, whereas (ii) chariots are associated with the Hurrian maryannu.

Highlights from the sources cited below:

“[B]y the 15th century BC, Pharaoh Tutmoses III had over a thousand chariots at his disposal; by 1400 BC the Great King of the Mitanni had amassed several times that number.”

“[As to] Egyptian chariots,…their use was more of a supporting role to the archers who manned them.”

“The Egyptian chariot betrayed its Asiatic origin in a number of ways, by the names of its parts which were Semitic and by its decorations which often took the form of date palm branches or animals opposing each other, both Syrian motifs.”

“[T]he Hittite chariot was probably superior to that of the Egyptians.”

“With a society built around a chariot warrior elite the Hurrians would for a time dominate the ancient Near East. During the Middle and Late Bronze Age much of Syria and Iraq came to be united under the rule of a Hurrian dynasty of kings known as the Mitanni.”

“Of the all the people of this era, the Hurrian people from the kingdom of Mitanni in Syria, have been identified as having had an intense devotion to horse husbandry. The Mitanni are credited with holding first horse-derbies in history. For centuries these skilled horse-folk of Syria set the standard for a new equine based military culture. … The chariot warrior elite amongst the Hurrians were known as the maryannu.”

And, of critical importance to this thread: “The title of Fieldmarshal (or Adjutant) of Chariotry is first identified with Iuias [Yuya], the father-in-law of Amenhotep III….”

1. “The Egyptian chariot betrayed its Asiatic origin in a number of ways, by the names of its parts which were Semitic and by its decorations which often took the form of date palm branches or animals opposing each other, both Syrian motifs. …Bronze Age cavalry was mostly deployed as a highly mobile archery force against lightly armed and scantily protected infantry.” http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/chariot.htm

2. “Clearly, in the hands of the Hittites, one of Egypt's chief opponents during the New Kingdom, their heavy machines were weapons used to crash into the troops of their enemies. However, the Egyptian chariots were not used in the same manner, and their use was more of a supporting role to the archers who manned them. …[B]y the 15th century BC, Pharaoh Tutmoses III had over a thousand chariots at his disposal; by 1400 BC the Great King of the Mitanni had amassed several times that number. …[T]he fact that the Egyptian chariots were lighter and faster than those of other major powers in the Middle East may not have been considered an absolute improvement in the chariot's design. …[T]he chariot was of paramount social and political significance since it heralded the appearance of the chariot corps which consisted of a new aristocratic warrior class modeled on the ubiquitous Asiatic military elite known to the Egyptians as the maryannu (young heroes). …Primary to the understanding of Egyptian chariots is the fact that the infantry remained the primary force within their military, while elsewhere, the army was built around the chariot forces. Hence, while the enemy's chariots were built to defeat the opposing infantry, the Egyptian chariots were designed to provide their own foot soldiers with a defense from the enemy's chariots. …In fact, under the proper conditions and circumstances, the Hittite chariot was probably superior to that of the Egyptians.” http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm

3. “The title of Fieldmarshal (or Adjutant) ofChariotry is first identified with Iuias [Yuya], the father-in-law of Amenhotep III….” Matei Traian Tichindelean, “The Egyptian Chariotry in the New Kingdom”. https://www.academia.edu/8002107/The_Egyptian_Chariotry_During_the_New_Kingdom

4. “[The Hurrians’] name maryannu ‘chariot warrior’ is Old Indic [Sanskrit]; and words for chariots, horses, horse training, and other elements of their culture are Old Indic.” Christopher I. Beckwith, “Empires of the Silk Road” (2009), p. 40.

5. “With a society built around a chariot warrior elite the Hurrians would for a time dominate the ancient Near East. During the Middle and Late Bronze Age much of Syria and Iraq came to be united under the rule of a Hurrian dynasty of kings known as the Mitanni. …[T]he Egyptians under Tuthmoses III met and defeated the Mitanni army. After marching into central Syria the Egyptians were able cross over the Euphrates and raid the Mitanni heartland. …Still, with their supply lines over-stretched, the Egyptians were unable to maintain effective control over conquered Mitanni territory beyond the Orontes valley and the region of Kadesh in south Syria.” http://theancientneareast.com/the-hurrian-kingdom-of-mitanni/

Let me note here the important fact that the Achilles heel of the Hurrian state of Mitanni was that it was never able to mount a national army. That, coupled with the Hurrians’ odd inability to build fortifications worthy of the name, meant that despite having the finest individual charioteers in the world, Mitanni was nevertheless unable to prevail against a determined national army that launched a frontal, full-scale invasion on the Hurrian homeland. The national army of Egypt defeated Mitanni under Thutmose III (though Egypt was unable to hold most of Syria). In Late Amarna, the national army of the Hittites under Suppiluliuma defeated and destroyed Mitanni, to the point that within a hundred years or so after that, the Hurrians were virtually extinct. The Hurrians were the greatest charioteers in the Bronze Age. But the inability of Mitanni to field a national army meant that military defeat was inevitable for the Hurrian state of Mitanni at the hands of first the Egyptian national army, and then, devastatingly, at the hands of the Hittite national army.

6. “Bronze Age Kingdoms were now also required to maintain large herds of horses. Of the all the people of this era, the Hurrian people from the kingdom of Mitanni in Syria, have been identified as having had an intense devotion to horse husbandry. The Mitanni are credited with holding first horse-derbies in history. For centuries these skilled horse-folk of Syria set the standard for a new equine based military culture. … The chariot warrior elite amongst the Hurrians were known as the maryannu.” http://theancientneareast.com/chariot-armies-of-the-bronze-age/
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starting in the reign of Thutmosis I., Egypt increases to the dominating power in the today Middle East / Asia Minor. It stays that way until the reign of Akhenaten / until the appearing of the Hittites. Countless contemporary sources in and from outside Ancient Egypt prove this. In historic science this is (rare enough) general consensus.

With safety this would not have been possible without superior weapons technology. In my previous post, the linked tv documentation from 2013 demonstrates impressively the superiority of the Egyptian chariot, at the very latest from Thutmosis III. The also linked latest scientific literature underpins this, not only by contributions from Egyptologists.

Not pharaoh's daughter was offered on the market for marriage, these were the daughters from the kings of the militarily inferior states in Asia Minor, et al also Mitanni...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From T. Davies, "The Tomb of Iouiya and Touiyou", Duckworth Egyptology (reprint), pages xx & xxi from the "Notice on Iouiya and Touiyou" by Gaston Maspero:



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Lutz:

Egypt had the best archers in the world in the New Kingdom, but Egypt’s charioteering skills were mediocre. Indeed, Egypt used its light chariots primarily simply as a means of getting its vaunted archers quickly to the front, rather than using chariots themselves to defeat an enemy.

Here are a few relevant quotes (by various authors) from the source you cited (thank you so much for the cite!; much appreciated), which make this critical point: http://www.palarch.nl/wp-content/ChariotConferenceAbstracts3rd1.pdf

1. “The Egyptian chariot in the Museum of Florence weighs only 24 kg and its tread is 2 cm wide. This might imply that the chariot was suited for limited long-distance travel because of its light and fragile construction.”

The “light and fragile construction” of Egyptian chariots meant that they were not fearsome war machines in their own right.

2. “While in the iconographic record from the Old and Middle Kingdoms the pharaoh smiting his enemies is always depicted with a mace or a dagger, in the New Kingdom an additional new image emerges: the pharaoh in his chariot using a bow. Equally in the iconographic record of Hittite Anatolia the bow is shown as a frequent weapon of the Hittite king. The picture is most dramatic in the Levant. While for the Early and Middle Bronze Ages almost no evidence for the use of bows and arrows is attested in the archaeological record, in the Late Bronze Age arrowheads are among the most frequently encountered weapons. Moreover, arrowheads are widely found in royal and elite tombs, for instance in Qatna, Kamid el-Loz, and Dan (tomb 387). It is suggested that the sudden rise in the social prestige of archery in warfare can be connected to the development of a new warrior ideology, linked to the introduction of the light, horse-drawn chariot.”

Egypt was #1 in archery skills. What chariots added to this was a way to get the vaunted Egyptian archers to the front quickly: “the sudden rise in the social prestige of archery in warfare can be connected to the development of a new warrior ideology, linked to the introduction of the light, horse-drawn chariot.”

3. “Whereas the Egyptian chariots had a two-man crew and are shown with quivers attached for the archer, the Hittite and Syrian chariots are shown with three occupants, comprising a shield-bearer in front of the driver and a spearman behind him, and apparently no quivers for arrows or javelins.”

Note the key difference there. The Hurrians [“Syrian”] and the Hittites used heavy chariots to batter the enemy. The key fighting man in a Hurrian or Hittite heavy chariot was the “spearman”, who fought at close quarters in that heavy chariot. By contrast, Egyptian chariots merely transported the vaunted Egyptian archers to the front lines.

4. It’s sure a shame that Roberto Díaz Hernández has not uploaded his paper to the Internet. I would love to read it. But I think you’re misinterpreting what he implies. Here’s all that’s available (including what you quoted):

“ ‘The Role of the War Chariot in the Formation of the Egyptian Empire in the Early 18th Dynasty’, Roberto Díaz Hernández. It is well-known that the invention of the war chariot between the Middle and the New Kingdom was a major change in military technology. However, little attention has been paid to its importance in the formation of the Egyptian Empire at the beginning of the New Kingdom. To fill this gap, I will first examine the role of the war chariot in Egyptian victories recorded in autobiographies such as that of Ahmose, son of Ibana, and in royal annals such as those of Thutmose III’s inscriptions. I will then compare the Asiatic and the Egyptian chariots and their use in order to spot any relevant differences which could explain the Egyptians’ victories over their Asiatic enemies. Lastly I will argue that the Egyptians improved a decisive war machine (probably taken from the Asiatic peoples coming to Egypt in the Second Intermediate Period), which they put to good use to expel the Hyksos and, above all, to set the basis of a great empire.”

I realize that you are expecting Hernández to argue that the Egyptian chariot, and Egyptian charioteering skills, were better than that of the “Asiatics”: the Hurrian chariot, the Hittite chariot, Hurrian charioteering skills, and Hittite charioteering skills. But that is simply not the case. (I would love to read Hernández’s article to find out precisely what he does say.) As far as that goes, please note that while Egypt did indeed defeat the Hurrian state of Mitanni, Egypt was unable to defeat the Hittites.

The Egyptian chariot, rather than being a fearsome war machine in its own right, was primarily simply used to get the vaunted Egyptian archers to the front quickly. As I noted in my prior post, the Achilles heel of Mitanni was its inability to field a national army, along with its inability to build strong fortifications. Though the Hurrian state of Mitanni was unmatched as to the charioteering skills of its world-famous maryannu, nevertheless first Egypt, and then the Hittites, were able to use their national armies to defeat Mitanni.

The Hittites did not defeat the Hurrian state of Mitanni because the Hittites had better chariots. In fact, in the 6-year war in which the Hittites defeated Mitanni, a majority of the battles were won by Mitanni, thanks to its superior charioteering skills. But those were the small battles. When mighty Hittite King Suppiluliuma I was there himself, as the commanding general of the Hittite national army, then the Hittites won all of those major battles, which is why the Hittites won the war against Mitanni.

Likewise, Egypt was able to defeat Mitanni in the preceding century, despite (like the Hittites) having inferior charioteering skills. Egypt had the world’s finest archers and a national army, whereas Mitanni, although having the world’s best charioteers, had no national army and no strong fortifications. The result was victory for Egypt.

Now consider why it is that Egypt could not defeat the Hittites, whereas Egypt had defeated the Hurrian state of Mitanni. The Hurrians and the Hittites used heavy chariots in a similar way, and in fact Hurrian charioteering skills were better than that of the Hittites. But the Hittites, you see, had a national army and the ability to build strong fortifications, which the Hurrian state of Mitanni sadly lacked. That’s the difference. If Egyptian charioteering skills had been superior to that of the “Asiatics” (which in fact was not the case), then Ramses the Great could have defeated the Hittites. But that never happened.

Egypt did not have a chariot, or charioteering skills, that were superior to either the Hurrian state of Mitanni or the Hittites, despite what might seem to be implied by the Hernández teaser quote above. Rather, if one wanted to upgrade a nation’s charioteering capabilities, then it was necessary to look to an ethnic Hurrian from Syria, such as Yuya, for that. As I noted in my prior post (which at the time I didn’t realize was from another source that you yourself cited): “The title of Fieldmarshal (or Adjutant) of Chariotry is first identified with Iuias [Yuya], the father-in-law of Amenhotep III….” At the time Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye became king and queen of Egypt, Yuya was considered to have the most valuable, and irreplaceable, skills in all of Egypt. In a separate post I will argue that Queen Mutemwiya, Amenhotep III, and Queen Tiye were all part of a package deal whose key element in fact was: Yuya. Yuya’s Hurrian charioteering skills were all-important to Egypt at that time. That’s why so many scarabs mentioning Queen Tiye go out of their way to state, often gratuitously, and uniquely in 3,000 years of pharaonic Egypt, that Queen Tiye’s father was: Yuya (who on my reading of the evidence was an ethnic Hurrian maryannu from northern Syria).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Jim Stinehart wrote:
Egypt had the best archers in the world in the New Kingdom, but Egypt’s charioteering skills were mediocre. ...

"Lexikon der Ägyptologie - Volume VI" (Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1986. - Wolfgang Decker : Wagen. - Col. 1130 - 1135) in Column 1131 :

Quote:
"... The vehicle makes an elegant impression and indicates a mature design that was probably found already at the beginning of the 18th Dynasty. Whether the Egyptian solution was technically superior to the Asatic, can not be determined due to lack of comparative material. ..."

The entry in the "" is from 1986 and I am not sure if they have found in the meantime an Asatic chariot during excavations. I could not find informations that archeologist did so in the last years...

Jim Stinehart wrote:
... It’s sure a shame that Roberto Díaz Hernández has not uploaded his paper to the Internet. I would love to read it. ...
One of the reasons why the gods invented public librarys...

Jim Stinehart wrote:
... But I think you’re misinterpreting what he implies. Here’s all that’s available ...
I think not, because the article is present to me, in printed form.

Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:12 am    Post subject: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Lutz:

A. Let me first comment on the two pages you reproduced from T. Davies, “The Tomb of Iouiya and Touiyou”, from the “Notice on Iouiya and Touiyou” by Gaston Maspero, Duckworth Egyptology, pp. xx and xxi. [By the way, thank you so much for reproducing this item, and also the item referenced at #B below. Much appreciated.]

1. The main point that Davies makes at p. xx is that allegedly there is nothing that suggests that Yuya is Syrian except an irrational desire to assert that Queen Tiye was Syrian, and in particular that the name “Yuya” is not similar to the name “Dushratta” of the king of Mitanni in the Amarna Letters.

(a) To address that second point first, “Tushratta” is a Sanskrit name, which was commonplace for the kings of Mitanni, but was rare for Hurrian noblemen in northern Syria, most of whom had Hurrian-based Hurrian names. We know what types of names Hurrian noblemen usually had from the thousands of names of Hurrians at Nuzi, and from the Amarna Letters.

I have explained that the name “Yuya” makes perfect sense in Hurrian, as iw -ya. The fact that a Hurrian-based Hurrian nobleman’s name like “Yuya” : iw -ya looks nothing like a Sanskrit-based name of a king of Mitanni is utterly irrelevant. No one is claiming that Queen Tiye was a Mitannian princess. She wasn’t. Rather, the claim is as follows: (i) Yuya was a Hurrian nobleman from northern Syria, both of whose parents were ethnic Hurrians, and who naturally gave their son a Hurrian-based Hurrian name; (ii) Yuya moved to Egypt as a young bachelor, where he married Tuyu, who was a native Egyptian; (iii) Queen Tiye was a Hurrian by patrilineal descent, but she was born in Egypt, her mother gave her an Egyptian name, she may have gotten most of her looks from her mother, so that Queen Tiye might look quite a bit like a native Egyptian, and Queen Tiye was largely Egyptian culturally.

As to the name “Yuya”, all scholars acknowledge that it was spelled in more different ways than virtually any other person’s name in Egypt’s long history, and that the logical explanation for that is that “Yuya” is a foreign name.

(b) To address the first point, there is significant evidence that Yuya was a Hurrian from northern Syria. No, there can be no DNA proof of that, because we have no DNA evidence from Hurrians. Here is a brief summary of the evidence that is frequently adduced by Egyptologists indicating that Yuya may have been a Hurrian from northern Syria:

(i) “Yuya’s mummy…has aquiline features with a prominent, hooked nose similar to the profiles of eastern foreigners painted on tomb walls in Dynasty 18 and dissimilar from traditional Egyptian faces. …Mitanni was the Kentucky of its day, where some of the ancient world’s finest and swiftest horses were bred and trained.” Arielle P. Kozloff, Amenhotep III: Egypt’s Radiant Pharaoh (2012), p. 102.

(ii) “The handsome light chariot found in the couple’s tomb is symbolic of his [Yuya’s] expertise. Perhaps he was one of the princely maryannu cavaliers brought into Egypt by Amenhotep’s predecessors, or he may have been one of the Naharin blue bloods who traveled to bring gifts, including horses, to Thutmose IV, an event celebrated on the walls of nobles’ tombs. The topography surrounding Akhmim [where Yuya lived] was perfect for the horse industry. …In antiquity, it would have been a likely spot for relocating some of the maryannu and setting up equestrian facilities.” Kozloff, p. 104

(iii) “Yuya proved to be a man of striking appearance, fairly tall for an Egyptian, with a large head of wavy white hair, a prominent beaky nose and thick fleshy lips. His unusual physiognomy, and the various spellings of his name,…induced some earlier Egyptologists to accredit him with a foreign origin. As Yuya was the Commander of the Chariotry, it is not improbable that he may have inherited some Asiatic blood, together with his calling, for Asiatics had had the reputation of being skilled in the government of horses since the incorporation of chariot forces into the Egyptian armies from the beginning of the Eighteenth Dynasty. His wife, Tuyu, was [by contrast] typically Egyptian in appearance….” Cyril Aldred, Akhenaten King of Egypt (1988), p. 96.

(iv) “…‘master of horse’ and ‘his majesty’s lieutenant-commander of chariotry’ -- which titles have occasionally been cited as further indications of Yuya’s origins as a high-ranking Syrian maryannu (chariot warrior).” Nicholas Reeves, Akhenaten Egypt’s False Prophet (2001), p. 57.

(v) “Yuya was the Master of Horse of royal cavalry, and a general officer of chariot units. He…was not Egyptian…but came from the Hurrian region of modern Syria.” Margaret Bunson, Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2014), p. 436.

2. The main point that Davies makes at p. xxi is that the fact that there is an artistic rendering of Queen Tiye with white skin is irrelevant, since it likely may have been the style for native Egyptian women at that time to apply white paint to their skin. I agree with that point, as far as it goes. But my response is that the appearance of Yuya’s excellently-preserved mummy is legitimate evidence, and is not an artistic issue. “Yuya’s mummy…has aquiline features with a prominent, hooked nose similar to the profiles of eastern foreigners painted on tomb walls in Dynasty 18 and dissimilar from traditional Egyptian faces.” “Yuya proved to be a man of striking appearance, fairly tall for an Egyptian, with a large head of wavy white hair, a prominent beaky nose and thick fleshy lips. His unusual physiognomy…induced some earlier Egyptologists to accredit him with a foreign origin.”

B. Now let me address this quote that you cite regarding chariots: “Whether the Egyptian solution was technically superior to the Asiatic, can not be determined due to lack of comparative material. ..." [Lutz, I’m confused where you got this quote, so I will say nothing about the author.]

Several physical chariots of the Egyptians have survived. Otherwise, most of our knowledge of both Egyptian chariots and Asiatic chariots (that is, Hurrian and Hittite chariots) comes from artistic depictions and literary accounts.
In fact, Egyptian chariots were lighter, and were not as fearsome, as Hurrian or Hittite chariots. Egyptian chariots were not used to ram into enemy lines, the way the heavier Hurrian and Hittite chariots were often used. Rather, for the most part Egyptian chariots were merely an efficient way to move the vaunted Egyptian archers quickly to the front lines.

Now compare what happened when these three peoples went to war against each other: the Egyptians vs. the Hurrians vs. the Hittites. The Hittites permanently destroyed the Hurrians. Both sides had similar chariots, and the Hurrians had slightly better charioteering skills. But the Hurrians had horrible defensive fortifications, and most importantly, the Achilles heel of the Hurrians was the fact that Mitanni was unable to field a national army.

The Egyptians under Ramses the Great were unable to dislodge the Hittites from Syria. Both had national armies; the Hittites had heavier, better chariots; and the Hittites had a much shorter supply line (and in fact were operating locally by that point).

Yes, it’s true that the Egyptians marched through Mitanni to the Euphrates River. But that was not because Egyptian chariots or Egyptian charioteering skills were superior to that of the Hurrians. Rather, it was because, as noted above, the Hurrians had horrible defensive fortifications and, most importantly, Mitanni was unable to field a national army.

C. What was the main reason why a mere harem wife, Mutemwiya, was plucked from obscurity to be Queen of Egypt and to be the lucky woman whose son (Amenhotep III) would be the next king of Egypt? Why was an obscure commoner, Tiye, picked to be the next Queen of Egypt? And for that matter, why was Amenhotep III picked as the next king of Egypt? The answer to all three questions is the same: Yuya. Yuya had the most invaluable, irreplaceable skills in all of Egypt -- the power to upgrade Egypt’s mediocre charioteering skills. The powers-that-be wanted to integrate Yuya into the heart of the royal family, so that Yuya would be sure always to be there to help Egypt with charioteering matters. No, Yuya was not made pharaoh: he was a foreigner. But Mutemwiya, Tiye and Amenhotep III were a package deal. Mutemwiya was Yuya’s sister, Tiye was Yuya’s daughter, and Amenhotep III became Yuya’s son-in-law. This was all done to ensure Yuya’s services.

“As the issue of this, the so-called ‘Marriage Scarab’, reveals, by their mention Yuya and Tjuyu can have been no ordinary commoners, but individuals of immense influence in Egypt at this time; and we may assume that it was in the interests of the child-king’s supporters to acknowledge the couple’s backing for the new regime in the most public manner possible. This conclusion finds confirmation in the fact that, in another issue of scarabs publicizing the king’s marriage to the Mitannian princess Gilukhepa Year 10, Tiye’s parentage is once more, and quite gratuitously, emphasized.” Nicholas Reeves, Akhenaten Egypt’s False Prophet (2001), pp. 54-55.

Lutz, it all makes sense if and only if Yuya was an ethnic Hurrian from northern Syria who had incomparable charioteering skills, per the world-famous Hurrian maryannu.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

evarelap wrote:
Ay as Nefertiti's father is also speculation. He is called God's Father in his Amarna tomb (No. 25?), so many beleive that for him to have that title he had to be at least "father in law" to Akhenaten, meaning the father of Nefertiti. But what if he was father to Kiya? Or any other wife at the royal harem?

Another idea comes from the fact that Mutnodjemet, who is documented as Nefertiti's sister, appears in Ay's tomb. But she is just standing there. With dwarves. So are three of Akhenaten's daughters. So Mutnodjemet's appearance in Ay's tomb could just be circumstantial.

Ay also held the same title as Akhenaten's grandfather Yuya, which was "master" or "overseer" of horses. So he is beleived to have inherited his father's title, meaning he was a member of the royal family. Nefertiti who is not documented as Akhenaten's sister may then be his cousin by Ay's daughter. But she could also be anyone else's daughter as well.

At least these is what some people beleive points to Ay and Nefertiti's relationship as father-daughter.


I actually read your description somewhere else, i think what you are saying has some facts behind it!
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