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DNA and mummies KV35YL and KV55

 
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: DNA and mummies KV35YL and KV55 Reply with quote

In relation to DNA, in such a seriously inbred family, could KV35YL and KV55 (mummies) be as easily Father-Daughter as they are Brother-Sister?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: DNA and mummies KV35YL and KV55 Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
In relation to DNA, in such a seriously inbred family, could KV35YL and KV55 (mummies) be as easily Father-Daughter as they are Brother-Sister?


KV35YL shows DNA from Tiye and Amenhotep III, while KV 55 shows the same. It would be impossible for KV 55 to be Amenhotep III, based upon the well-known 30+ year reign, and for KV 55 to be the father of KV35YL, there would be the assumption of Tiye again being in the maternal line, which means incest, via mother + son.

As inbred as the Egyptian royal are, there is no known situation (until perhaps the Ptolemaic era), where an Egyptian royal male has royal children with his own daughter. Marriages to royal daughters are known before this time, but children from such unions appear doubtful (even Akhenaten appears to have briefly been linked to Meritaten, and even perhaps Ankhsenamun, via marriage. However, there is doubt that he produced children with him).

The Egyptians were aware of the problems incest caused to children, and it is usually the sign of a diminishing dynasty if it occurs, so they did try and keep bloodlines separated to certain degrees. However, the closeness of relations between marriage of first cousins, which occurred fairly often in the 18th Dynasty, also showed the problems even more distant incest could cause, as malocclusions (buckteeth) grew progressively worse among royal males and females - as well as probably other health problems, such as scoliosis - from such first-cousin marriages (on this, see Wente and Harris 1980).

One has to recall the position of Great Royal Wife is first given to the mother of the main heir in usual Egyptian royal practice; afterwards, daughters (or related royal females, such as sisters or cousins) are later elevated to the position - not for child-bearing reasons - but either due to the absence, loss of favour, or incapability of the first Great Royal Wife. I such cases, it's best to think of such GRW's as ritually important (they hold the position of Hathor to the King's Horus role, as consort), and politically the same as the position of First Lady to a nation's President.

Not all marriages were meant for procreation in a royal household: some were political, others were ritually important, and some were simple sexual liaisons which were not meant to affect royal lineage.

References:

Harris, J. E. and E. F. Wente, Eds. 1980. An X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

On ritual importance of the Great Royal Wife, see:

Troy, L. 1986. Patterns of Queenship: in ancient Egyptian myth and history. BOREAS 14. Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis.

HTH.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Neseret.

I actually didn't have in mind Amenophis III.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering if anyone here may be able to answer my general question. Perhaps ignore the reference to KY35YL and KV55. I can see how Neseret jumped to the conclusion about Amenophis III, and I apologise for that.

I'll pose the question slighly differently.

If a child is born to inbred parents but no one knows if it is the offspring of a Father-Daughter or a Brother-Sister, can DNA be used to differentiate between them?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
... If a child is born to inbred parents but no one knows if it is the offspring of a Father-Daughter or a Brother-Sister, can DNA be used to differentiate between them?

From a commercial website of a German DNA-Lab :
Quote:
"... Wir können Hypothese und Gegenhypothese frei definieren und sind daher in der Lage, nahezu jedes Verwandtschaftsverhältnis aufzuklären, sofern nur geeignete Testpersonen zur Verfügung stehen. Berechnungen in Inzestfällen Besteht zwischen Mutter und Putativvater (beziehungsweise Putativmutter und Vater) eine Eltern- oder eine Geschwisterbeziehung, müssen andere Formeln zur Berechnung des Paternity Indexes (PI) verwendet werden, da die Unabhängigkeit der elterlichen Genotypen nicht mehr gegeben ist. Auch für diesen Fall bietet unsere Software die geeigneten Möglichkeiten, wenn diese Gegebenheit vorher bekannt ist."

Quote:
Google Translator:

"... We can freely define hypothesis and counter-hypothesis, and are thus able to elucidate almost every relationship of affinity, provided that only suitable test persons are available. Calculations in incest cases, if there is a parent or sibling relationship between mother and putative father (or putative mother and father), other formulas must be used to calculate the paternity index (PI), since the independence of parental genotypes no longer exists. In this case as well, our software offers the appropriate possibilities when this situation is known in advance."

This probably confirms my already stated assumption (The Magic Bricks in KV55 - Page 2 - Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:47 am) :
Quote:
I am also not an expert in DNA, just school and general education ... But I would say when analyzing modern samples, where all the necessary information in the laboratory can be exact and sure determined, it should be possible? ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some questions arise in my mind from what you say, Lutz.

Where we have ALL the necessary information? - it 'should' be possible?

So we can't really fully exclude the possibility that it could be another familial relationship, rather than brother-sister, in cases of inbred families?
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, if we are dealing with mummies thousands of years old where the 'necessary information' may not be as available as we might like to hope?
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some questions arise in my mind from what you say, Lutz.

Where we have ALL the necessary information? - it 'should' be possible?

So we can't really fully exclude the possibility that it could be another familial relationship, rather than brother-sister, in cases of inbred families?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
... So we can't really fully exclude the possibility that it could be another familial relationship, rather than brother-sister, ...?

See, for example, " Marc Gabolde Looks on DNA Test of Tutankhamuns Family ".
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz, my best guess is that KV55 is Akhenaten. The line of inquiry I am trying to pursue is, is it possible that KV35YL is Meritaten. Can the DNA experts say, on tests done ancient inbred mummies, that this is not possible? I reiterate: I am just pursuing a line of inquiry to see where it leads.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read the indicated stuff, Lutz. The DNA for sister-brother parentage is maybe not as secure as I thought it might be. Very interesting. Thanks again. You were always a disinterested helper of me. (Formerly, I was Orwell, but my account lapsed). Cheers.
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