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Phonetic Values of Hieroglyps - Bi- & Triliterals

 
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Phonetic Values of Hieroglyps - Bi- & Triliterals Reply with quote

I made a table with bi- and triliteral hieroglyphs, in the way to make comparison between Gardiner, Hoch and Allen. In this way there are many different interpretations of phonetic values. I hope you will have some use of this tables.

What is your opinion? Any suggestions, corrections?

Biliterals
http://www.mediafire.com/file/69xavxra6iokkfs/Phonetic_Values_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs_-_Biliterals.pdf
Triliterals
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ca66aa5ejgcxnda/Phonetic_Values_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs_-_Triliterals.pdf

P.S. Share further this PDF so other people can use it.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I am, as already mentioned several times, on the field translations, etc. anything but an expert, I have a good friend of mine ( Michael Tilgner ) asked to throw a look at your files :

Quote:
... Ich habe mal einen Blick in die Tabelle der "Biliterals" geworfen: Da hat sich Boris eine Menge Arbeit gemacht! Allerdings mit einem unbvefriedigenden Ergebnis, meiner Meinung nach.

Als Beispiel habe ich mir D56 "Bein" vorgenommen. Gardiner beschreibt es als Ideogramm und Determinativ und trägt die verschiedenen Lesungen zusammen. Boris hat nur eine unter mehreren in seine Tabelle übernommen. Auch Allen hat die unterschiedlichen Lautwerte in seiner Liste angegeben, wenn auch knapper als Gardiner. Hoch habe ich nicht. Boris hat durch willkürliche Auswahl die komplexe Situation für dieses Zeichen vereinfacht (verballhornt) und dadurch ein falsches Bild gegeben. Auch wenn man nicht so tief in der Materie steckt, so kann man doch durch den Vergleich der Beschreibungen bei Gardiner und Allen erkennen, dass der Versuch, die Zuweisungen eines Lautwertes zu einem Zeichen durch verschiedene Autoren in einer einfachen Tabelle zusammenzufassen, zum Scheitern verurteilt ist. ...

Quote:
... I took a look at the table of the "Biliterals": Boris made a lot of work! However, with an unsatisfactory result, in my opinion.

As an example, I take D 56 "leg". Gardiner describes it as an ideogram and determinative and collates the different readings. Boris has only taken one of several in his table. Allen has also indicated the different loudness values in his list, although scarcer than Gardiner. I do not have Hoch. Boris has simplified the complex situation for this character by means of arbitrary selection (verballhornt) and thereby given a false picture. Even if one is not so deeply involved in the subject, the comparison of the descriptions with Gardiner and Allen shows that the attempt to summarize the assignments of a volume value to a character by various authors in a simple table is doomed to failure. ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lutz. Thank you for your effort, and thank you because you shared my work further. I am very thankful because you sent my work to someone who has experience in the area of translation and hieroglyphs. I understand all suggestions and critics your friend said, and I got a point of what be want to say, but I am not quite sure that he understand my intentions when I made this list. What I wanted to achieve is to make a list (table) of all suggeted phonetic values (and only phonetic) of all hieroglyphs, and not going deeper on other meanings and attributes, etc. The question "Why?" may come on the mind. I'll try to explain.
When some one start learning hieroglyphs, the first thing to learn is a phonetic value of unilateral hieroglyphs so you can transliterate text, words, looking into dictionary, etc. In the area of unilaterals the situation is quite clear - G1 is 3, M17 is i (j), G43 is w, etc. But, as probably many learners probably noted is when you come to learn biliterals and triliterals, thing are slight different between different authors. So for example, as your friend noted, sign D56, in Gardiner's book and Hoch' has a phonetic value of gH (and only that), but in the Allen's, only rd, so this can make confusion between learners, as I was once confused when started learning.
So this table is made for others to understand that there is many different approaches and meanings (which are not wrong), but with table, I tried to make them on one place.

I am sorry if maybe wrongly understand what your friend wanted to say, but this is how I see his answer.[/b]
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To explanation, Michael Tilgner is strongly engaged with EEF and other projects and has actually not the time, to post also here in the forum regular. So I jump in as a kind of "agent" ... No fear, all free of charge. Cool

Michael Tilgner (03.02.2017) wrote:
Lost Pharaoh wrote:
What I wanted to achieve is to make a list (table) of all suggeted phonetic values (and only phonetic) of all hieroglyphs, and not going deeper on other meanings and attributes, etc. (...) So for example, as your friend noted, sign D56, in Gardiner's book and Hoch' has a phonetic value of gH (and only that), but in the Allen's, only rd, so this can make confusion between learners, as I was once confused when started learning."

According to Gardiner's description for D56 leg the following phonetic values can be found for it: (1) rd; (2) pds; (3) war; (4) sbq; (5) gH or gHs. For the last one Gardiner wrote "for some reason unknown"; he gave reasons for the other ones and wrote explicitly "phon." or "phon. or phon. det." which I understand as assigning a phonetic value to the sign.

Allen's description is much shorter and differs indeed a little from Gardiner's: (2') pd; (3') war.t; (5') only gHs.

Our different approach comes from a different understanding of the hieroglyphic signs: When used as an ideogram it has a sound-value _and_ a meaning, whereas a phonogram has a sound-value only and _no_ meaning. When used as a determinative, it has _no_ sound-value, but points to the semantic field of the preceding word. In fact, in many cases a single sign can be used in all three manners.

If one wants to make a table with _all_ phonetic values of a sign (and only that) then those values of a sign when used as an ideogram are also to be included. In my opinion such a table should look like:

(Sign no.; Gardiner, Allen)
[1] (D56; rd, rd)
[2] (D56; pds, pd)
[3] (D56; war, war.t)
[4] (D56, sbq, sbq)
[5] (D56; gH / gHs; gHs)

Now each line can be discussed separately:

For example [2]: What about the different spelling of the Egyptian word for "knee"? According to Wb I, 500, the original spelling is pAd, but there was a variant pd since the 18th dyn.: Obviously the spelling has changed over time. Therefore the entry pd in Wb I, 566 points to pAd. What about the different spelling pd or pds for D56 in the word pds "box"? According to the slip archive there is a writing with D56 only for pds (in papyrus Westcar): DZA 23.543.520. The slip with this passage (DZA 23.543.550) has a note "sic" for this writing, meaning that it is unusual, perhaps the only case, it may be an error. However, Gardiner accepted it and used the value pds, Allen did not and used pd.

I believe many differences can be explained similarly.

Kind regards,
Michael Tilgner

Gardiner :


Allen:


Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Lutz, once more, and thank you for the "free of charge" Wink Thank you to your friend also because he devoted his time to write such extensive answer.

As I can see from it, the most important thing is that the hieroglyphs as ideograms also have phonetic value, not only phonograms, and that is the fact that I overlooked (or I didn't know, to be more precise).

Now I see and understand that my approach with that table has flaws and it is still incomplete and unfinished. With all this, for now I will use different approach.

One more question: Can you or your friend explain to me the difference between determinative and phonetic determinative? (sorry if this is maybe a trivial question).
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hanna Jenni : Lehrbuch der Klassisch-Ägyptischen Sprache. - Basel : Schwabe, 2010. - ISBN : 9783796526695. - 301 p. - Page 23 :



As I understand this, a "determinative" becomes an "phonetic determinative" if the phonetic group to which this determinative belongs, is used in an other word?

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, I don't know for sure what it could be. Can you translate the text you posted as a picture?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Tilgner (04.02.2017) wrote:
Lost Pharaoh wrote:
What is the difference between "determinative" and "phonetic determinative"?

Here are the definitions from Alan H. Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 1957, pp. 31 and 50 resp.





Kind regards,
Michael Tilgner

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Gardiner : Egyptian Grammar - Being an Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs. - [3rd, Rev. Ed.]. - Oxford : Oxford University Press, 1957. - ISBN : 0900416351. - XXXVI, 646 p.:

Quote:
A photographic reproduction of the second edition is the basis of this new edition. On thirty-four pages, details have been rectified. Additions and corrections are put together on pages xxxi-xxxvi.


"Egyptian Grammar by Sir Alan Gardiner - Key to the Exercises" (Mark-Jan Nederhof, 2009).

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you and your friend very much! I totally understand now. Smile
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