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Egyptian names in other ancient languages?

 
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Mennefer
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Egyptian names in other ancient languages? Reply with quote

I'm looking for information about which ancient Egyptian names are attested in other period languages?

So far I have found these:

Amenhotep -> Akkadian: Amanahatpi

Usermaatre Setepenre Ramesses Meriamun (Wsr-m3ˁ.t-Rˁ-stp.n-Rˁ Rˁ msj sw mrj Jmn) -> akk. Uašmuaria šatepnaria Riamašeša maia-amana

Nefertari (Nfrt jrj) -> akk. Naptera

Nebmaatre (Amenhotep III) -> akk. Nibmuaria, Nimmuaria

Tiye (Tjj) -> akk. Teie

Akhenaten -> Ahanjati (?)

Tutankhamun Nebkhepererure (Nb-ḫprw-Rˁ) -> akk. Nibhururia

Ptahmesse -> akk. Táhmašši

Hormesse -> akk. Haramašši

Places:

The two Lands, Tawy -> akk. Tawa
Asyut (zajw.tj) -> Assyrian: Siautu
Memphis (mn-nfr) -> akk. Mempi
Tanis (Ḏˁnt) -> Assyrian Sanu

Are there any more you know of?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Egyptian names in other ancient languages? Reply with quote

Mennefer wrote:
I'm looking for information about which ancient Egyptian names are attested in other period languages?

So far I have found these:

Amenhotep -> Akkadian: Amanahatpi

Usermaatre Setepenre Ramesses Meriamun (Wsr-m3ˁ.t-Rˁ-stp.n-Rˁ Rˁ msj sw mrj Jmn) -> akk. Uašmuaria šatepnaria Riamašeša maia-amana

Nefertari (Nfrt jrj) -> akk. Naptera

Nebmaatre (Amenhotep III) -> akk. Nibmuaria, Nimmuaria

Tiye (Tjj) -> akk. Teie

Akhenaten -> Ahanjati (?)


Probably not: In general Egyptian kings were called by their throne name. In Akkadian, Akhenaten was known as Naph-hurru-riya, according to Goetze (expert in Akkadian) (1969) and Giles (ANE expert) (1997 and 2001).

One name we do know from Akkadia is Meritaten, Akhenaten's eldest daughter, who is referred to in the Akkadian texts as "May-ati", leading some scholars to think that the -aten portion of her name may have had a "y" sound preceding it. I tend to disagree, based on how Amenhotep III's throne name was rendered, with a "ua/wa" sound, which could have been similar to the Akkadian "ya" sound, which incorporated the /t/ function of the name.

Reference:

Giles, F. J., et al. 1997. The Amarna Age: Western Asia. Australian Centre for Egyptology: Studies 5.Warminster: Aris and Philips Ltd.

Giles, F. J. 2001. The Amarna Age: Egypt. Australian Centre for Egyptology: Studies 6.Warminster: Aris and Philips Ltd.

Goetze, Albrecht in ANET = Pritchard, J. B., Ed. 1969. Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

HTH.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Egyptian names in other ancient languages? Reply with quote

Mennefer wrote:
... Akhenaten -> Ahanjati (?) ...

This is another version of what Egyptologists think his name was pronounced in the ancient Egyptian language. You can read this in the works from some authors in the scientific literature.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Mennefer
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. I wonder why Mr.jt (in Meritaten) and Mr.jt (as in Ramesses Meriamun) seems to have been pronounched "Maya" (Mayati, Maya-amana), whereas Mrj in Merneptah seems to have been vocalized as "Mar" (Marniptah). Is there any explanation to this? The Bohairic Coptic equivelent is similar to the former; mei (love), but "Merit" (Merrit, Mrrt) is "beloved" in Sahidic and Akhmimic.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe of interest...

Yoshiyuki Muchiki : Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords in North-West Semitic. - Atlanta (Georgia) : Society of Biblical Literature, 1999. - [SBL Dissertation Series 173]. - ISBN : 0884140040. - XXXV, 357 p., tables.
Quote:
OEB 43701 (AEB 1999.0243) : "The purpose of this study is to establish, from the North-West Semitic side, the phonetic correspondences between North-West Semitic (Phoenician/Punic, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Ugaritic) and Ancient Egyptian chronologically. In other words, the present study deals with how North-West Semitic scribes wrote Egyptian in their Semitic writing systems, with concentration on consonantal correspondences. In the introduction it is pointed out there has been considerable confusion over phonetic correspondences between the languages, which go back to the fairly common unawareness of scholars that Semitic and Egyptian transliterated each other's languages differently with respect to the consonants. This comparative approach enables to see the historical changes and real sound values of Egyptian consonants, the establishing of which is to a large extent obscured by the extreme conservatism in the Egyptian writing system. Therefore, it is very difficult to establish sound values on the basis of hieroglyphic writings. In contrast, Semitic scribes when writing Egyptian tried to transcribe it as they heard it, and, therefore, their records reflect directly the real sound values of Egyptian. Appropriate materials for the purpose are: Egyptian personal, divine and geographical names as well as Egyptian loanwords transcribed into Semitic. To this end, the author methodically investigates in five chapters Egyptian names and loanwords in Phoenician/Punic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Ugaritic and in the Akkadian of the el-Amarna Tablets. In each chapter the four categories of names and words are inventoried and the phonological correspondences analysed, whilst in the first three chapters an introductory section is added on the dates and provenances of the documents used from the several languages. On the basis of the examinations, the Egyptian names and loanwords are classified as "possibly", "probably" or "certainly Egyptian". The concluding ch. 6 deals with: (1) consonantal correspondences; (2) notes on the correspondences concerning glottal stops, sibilants, pharyngals and laryngals, and alveolars; (3) phonetic changes, such as changes or the dropping of consonants, N-assimilation and prosthetic Aleph; (4) matres lectionis; (5) quantitative analysis of the Egyptian loanwords; (6) light on the age and character of Egyptian terms in the O.T.; (7) hybrid names formed under Egyptian religious influences.
Added are a bibliography, and indexes of Egyptian personal names, hybrid personal names with either Egyptian gods or Semitic gods, Egyptian divine names, Egyptian place names, and Egyptian loanwords."

The first version of this book is a dissertation of same title from 1990, University of Liverpool. This is (after free registration) available for download at:

"British Library : EThOS - Electronic Theses Online Service (UK)"

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Lutz, a fascinating and worthwile read.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Memphis

Indeed, that is quite an interesting subject that seems full of potential to guess what ancient Egyptian could be like via third party rendering of native names.
Nonetheless, I don't think it is possible to get anything truly certain from third party languages because ancient people "sucked" when it came to memorized or even at least comprehend foreign pronunciation and languages.

Enormous variants of a same proper name or toponym are found. There is no consistency for these possible reasons:

1) Various people rendering differently names. For instance, in Assyrian and Babylonian, they use different syllabes with different cuneiform. Sometimes, it is rather a different rendering.

2) Even within themselves, sometimes, they fail at consistency. At least, for the orthography. Again, regarding Assyrian/Babylonia, given many individuals could write another individual name multiple times, one can end up with many variants. They tried their best to render what they heard orally (because ancient civilizations were primarily oral) vith the syllabic ideograms they have.

3) The most recurrent fail at rendering consistent proper names is the ending. Given the language barrier, most individuals do their best to understand most of the foreign name. The first part of the names is the most consistent rendering. The final syllabes are strongly inconsistent.

4) They don't care. Foreigners were seen almost all the time as enemies by most ancient civilizations. Egyptians are reputed to avoid writing their enemies' names because of theological reasons. Names were more than just names for them. Assyrians treated almost everyone like foes and seemingly intentionally tampered names. If not intentional, we see how they cared about the memory of their enemies even if they fell by their hands. All it was important was some individual approx. named xxxxx was vanquished.

5) The don't care still persist today. One personal anecdote from the work office is utter lack of interest of even make a single drop of effort in memorizing coworkers name. The variants for each names are stupendous. They just don't care. But, I giggled how it related so well what I've seen in stelae, rock inscriptions and stelae.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems quite an interesting perusal, Lutz. I didn't know how extensive scribes worked foreign languages. Still, that makes sense since translators were necessary for international politics.
Moreover, I'm also surprised they actually tried to convey a good rendering of what it was heard.
Still, most correspondences I've read are linked to warfare. Likely, it was a perfect circumstance of "don't care of my foe's name" here. It was a biased source of evidence.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyways, here are some cases I've encountered:
A bit messy because I gathered the stuff in lightning speed from various documents.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting and valid points Medjayarcher. Of course it's never easy to convey foreign names from foreign scripts to ones' own language and script. Just look how Westerners has been struggling to transliterate Chinese vocabulary and names, or how the Japanese transliterate Western ones (i.e. Clint Eastwood becomes Kurinto īsutōddo when rendered in Hiragana).

Nevertheless, surely a cross-comparison between different transliterations, loan-words and Coptic provide us with sound "guesstimates" of how a number of AE names and words were vocalized.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:14 am    Post subject: Many toponyms of the Middle Nile Region. Reply with quote

While reading, I stumbled upon many toponyms with several linguistic correspondences (latin, Egyptian, Meroitic and Modern spelling).

First, context must be given.
A certain rather little known Greek writer named Bion of Soloi (alternatively Bion Soleus, Bion of soli) wrote historical books about travels he actually made in Lower Nubia and below. His work composed of many "books" (in fact, it is not sure there were actual books) was named Aithiopika, but it is now lost to modern readers. His work is often cited and that is how he is known. It is the roman general and encyclopedist Pliny the Elder who cited an excerpt of Bion's itinerary in the Middle Nile Region.

To read the actual excerpt, see here. Choose the second book and go to page 210 (the pdf pagination, not the one of the book). It's item #108.

For the references, it is all given within the book.

Here are the correspondences.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Pharaoh Necho/Nekau II of the 26th Dynasty.

In the bible, 2 Kings 23:33.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is the similarity in names of the daughter of Akhenaten and the moon in the old ethnic language of the Andes Quechua. The daughter Tiye or Kiya and the moon in Quechua Killa (pronounced ke-ya). What the relationship between the people of each culture can be anyone's guess, there doesn't seem to have been much connection between continents. The people of the Andes called the moon Mama Killa.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dzama923 wrote:
There is the similarity in names of the daughter of Akhenaten and the moon in the old ethnic language of the Andes Quechua. ... What the relationship between the people of each culture can be anyone's guess, ...

Such type "it-sounds-like" statements are completely unscientific and do not bring the slightest. With a bit of patience and good will when looking for, one probably finds something of this kind in every language for each other...

dzama923 wrote:
... there doesn't seem to have been much connection between continents. ...

"have been much" Idea Idea Idea
What "connection between continents" was there at all? Idea
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