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Help with hieroglyph for 'sheaf for arrows' from Faulkner's

 
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Help with hieroglyph for 'sheaf for arrows' from Faulkner's Reply with quote

Can anybody know which hieroglyphs is second hieroglyph from word s (z) - "sheaf for arrows" from Faulkner's Dictionary. I do not have an access to Urk. IV, 1280, 17, which is reference for this word, so I cannot check.

Here is the word from Dictionary:


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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolfgang Helck : Urkunden der 18. Dynastie. - [Abteilung IV - Heft 17 : Biographische Inschriften von Zeitgenossen Thutmosis' III. und
Amenophis' II.]. - Berlin : Akademie Verlag, 1955. - Die Grosse Sphinxstele Amenophis`II. - No. 1280 :



I would say "HSZ 158" ?

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much, Lutz! I didn't noticed it when I was looking through Hannig's Sign List.

Could be that HSZ158, but as you can see the hieroglyph from Urkunden has much wider central circle, and also it has that black part od the lower part of the ring, so then it looks more like some kind od tie which sorounding the hypotetical bundle of arrows (the black part is the knot).

That is my understanding.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both, Faulkner and Helck give the signs in the form of an individual manuscript of the author. Therefore I would not ignore the meaning in the identification... And " s – Bündel " (" s - bunch ") for HSZ 158 fits, right?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rainer Hannig : Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch - Deutsch (2800-950 v. Chr.) - Die Sprache der Pharaonen. - [4th revised ed., Marburger Edition]. - Mainz : Philipp von Zabern, 2006 :



Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are alright, I don't comment the meaning. Hannig is right, but I only thinking about drawing, because I also draw hieroglyphs that are not mentioned in any sign list, and I want them to be closest as possible as original source, as it in this case is Urkunden.

This is how I understand it:



As I said, it is that hieroglyph, but I should make it to look more like in Urkunden, which, as you can see, is not the case with Hannig's drawing.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then you create, in my view, a character that does not exist. As long as you can not give at least another document for "your" version, or if you had the original before you...

As I said, Helck and Faulkner are handwritten drawings. Errors during printing (1955) can not be ruled out. Who says this was not just running ink?

The publications from Hassan (drawing & photo) do not support your version either. The drawing speaks at least 2 times for Hannig`s SZ 158 ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, you know more sources then me. Do you have the picture/photo of original inscription (as I can see that is the Big Sphinx Stella of Amenophis II), or that publication of Hassan?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my memory, I had given to you the link to these publications in another context (online at "The Giza Archives"). But no matter, they are also here in the forum...

" Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Sphinx -> Sphinx in Ancient Literature "

The first book from 1949 gives a picture as figure 38, following page 178. A bad, not meaningful photo, at least in this digitized form of the book. I do not know the quality of the original...

The book from 1953 has a drawing of the stele on plate XXXVIII, following page 140.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
In my memory, I had given to you the link to these publications in another context (online at "The Giza Archives"). ...

By PM here in the Forum, on February the 6th, this year :

Quote:
... Hassan, Selim. Excavations at Gîza 8: 1936-1937. The Great Sphinx and its Secrets. Historical Studies in the Light of the Recent Excavations. Cairo: Government Press, 1953

Page 140 / Plate XXXVIII. ...


Evil or Very Mad

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Lutz, I have lot of on my mind lately, and I didn't recognize that publication by it's author. I will check it now.

Thank you very much.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked Hassan's book, and as I (you) can see, that hieroglyph for me looks more like hieroglyph S21 of Gardiner list, then one from Hannig, but maybe I am not competent as Hannig to say that.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Michael Tilgner, personal communication by E-Mail...
Quote:
The passage Urk IV, 1280.17 reads:

Am(m).n=f aHA.w 4 m sp wa
"he seized four arrows at once" or similar. Lichtheim translated: "(... while) holding four arrows together in his fist" (AEL II, 42).

The sign in question is obviously a variant writing of O50 sp without inner markings. See Wb III, 436.12-16: m sp wa "all of a sudden", "unanimous", "at once", "together", "in one moment"



I checked several translations. I could not find that anyone uses Faulkner's translation s "sheaf of arrows". In fact, even TLA does not have it as a word. It seems to me that only Faulkner translated it in this way and Hannig added it to his dictionary, obviously without checking its validity.

Amm "to seize" with fist (for the writing with one m only - see Wb I, 10)



See also the slip DZA 20.057.960 for this passage and the writing of the sign.


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