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Looking for a papyrus painting (spell 151) head of mystery
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dzama923
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the holy Isched tree, the same as the tree of life?
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neseret
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dzama923 wrote:
Is the holy Isched tree, the same as the tree of life?


Not in the biblical sense that it bears fruit that defines knowledge of good and evil. Rather, in Egyptian thought, it is a book of sorts, upon which the deeds of a king - his successes and his failures - are written for the gods to use to judge his reign as in keeping ma'at for the Two Lands.

The goddess Seshat writes the deed upon the leaves of the Ished tree, usually before the god Amun in most reliefs, though Atum and Ra are occasionally represented in his stead. The god Thoth records the deeds and interprets them to the gods.

Here's an image of Seti I with his Ished tree, flanked by Thoth (left) and, out of view, Seshat, likely behind him. I believe this is from Karnak Temple.



HTH.
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dzama923
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is cool, thanks Neseret. It is interesting to me though there seems to be a lot of renditions of this carving. Like the one posted above by Robson on crystalinks.org. The one you posted seems to be the original, though it does seem a little cut off, and that the third person from the left is looking ahead. Would you be able to resize the image, that would be great. Thanks anyway though, if that's not possible, I really liked looking at this, it helps me understand what I was looking for.
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dzama923
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know where the renditions of this carving, and the papyrus copies are coming from? There seems to be different styles, of Thoth and of Seshat writing on the leaves of the isched tree.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Welvaert : On the Origin of the Ished-Scene. - In: Göttinger Miszellen 151. - 1996. - pp. 101 - 107 :
Quote:
The author lists the variety of N.K. scenes of inscribing the royal name on the leaves of the ished-tree. This particular aspect in the scenes stands in some contrast with the fact that it is rarely referred to in the accompanying texts, which much more often mention the writing of the annals or the jubilees. Probably Tuthmosis I was the first king to have his name written on the ished-tree. The scene is associated with legitimacy, a long reign and rebirth.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Tilgner wrote:
The painting of Thoth, Seshat, a Pharaoh and the Ished tree on

http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptrees.html

is not from an ancient papyrus, but a modern rendition by Jenny Carrington:

http://carrington-arts.com/AEnew.html

She also gives a translation of the hieroglyphic text on both sides. It seems that she composed this painting from different sources. According to a list of Ished tree scenes collected by Wolfgang Helck (Ramessidische Inschriften aus Karnak. I. Eine Inschrift Ramses' IV., in: ZÄS 82, 98-140 (1957) [the list of 18 scenes on pp. 117-125]) there are only two scenes relating to Sethos I. (1) Karnak, hypostyle: The king is on his knees looking to the right, Thoth is behind him writing the name of the Pharaoh on a leaf (obviously the photograph by Katherine), Seshat is not in this scene, nor nearby; (2) temple of Abydos: The king is on his knees looking to the left, the gods are Ptah and Re. The inscriptions in the painting of Jenny have been copied from somewhere else. BTW, all Ished tree scenes are on temple walls. - A more recent study is in Eric Waelvert, On the Origin of the Ished-scene, in: GM 151 (1996), 101-107. He does not mention any other Ished tree scene for Sethos I.

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dzama923
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Lutz, I can't seem to locate the article and publication of the magazine Gottinger Miszellen, there is one number 151 but it was published in 1989, not 1996. Can you tell me where to find the article?
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dzama923
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found the article, it is the 1989 publication, but I can't log in since I am not affliliated with the institutions that can subscribe. Can you help me out to get the article somehow?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dzama923 wrote:
I have found the article, it is the 1989 publication, but I can't log in since I am not affliliated with the institutions that can subscribe. Can you help me out to get the article somehow?

No, it is an writing error on the web page, 151 is from 1996 (or how do you explain 150 from 1996 and 152 from 1996 ?). Send me your e-mail address by PM here over the forum ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For copyright reasons it is of course not possible to publish the complete article here. Therefore, from my point of view the "essence", from page 104 :


(Eric Welvaert : On the Origin of the Ished-Scene. - In: Göttinger Miszellen 151. - 1996. - pp. 101 - 107.)

Greetings, Lutz.
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