Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

How many hieroglyphic markings are there?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Art and Literature
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Nicolas Perrault III
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: How many hieroglyphic markings are there? Reply with quote

I was wondering how many hieroglyphic inscriptions there are out there. I'm not talking about the number of different glyphs in the Egyptian language. Rather, I'd like to know how many total ancient markings have been found; if you counted every symbol from every known Egyptian text, how many would you find?
Of course, one would need to establish counting specifications. For example, do you count the plurality marks (three vertical bars) as one or three symbols (or none at all)? But I'm just looking for a rough estimate.

Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nicolas Perrault III
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: How many hieroglyphic markings are there? Reply with quote

I guess you get no response because your question is a) absurd and contradictory and b) complete nonsense / useless...

To a)...

You ask:
Nicolas Perrault III wrote:
I was wondering how many hieroglyphic inscriptions there are out there. I'm not talking about the number of different glyphs in the Egyptian language. ...

and then:

Nicolas Perrault III wrote:
... Rather, I'd like to know how many total ancient markings have been found; if you counted every symbol from every known Egyptian text, how many would you find? ...


What now? How many texts or how many characters / hieroglyphics?

And to b)...

Why should someone do this "Sisyphus-work"? For what should it be good / helpful? What profit on knowledge about Ancient Egypt or the history of mankind should this give?

Greetings, Lutz.
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S.: There are of course quite complex publications of important texts. An example would be the series "Urkunden des Aegyptischen Altertums", initiated by the German Egyptologist Kurt Sethe.

Greetings, Lutz.
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: How many hieroglyphic markings are there? Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:


Why should someone do this "Sisyphus-work"? For what should it be good / helpful? What profit on knowledge about Ancient Egypt or the history of mankind should this give?


My thoughts exactly. It's like asking how many letters there are in all possible texts in French. What's the point?

All I think that matters is that there is a large body of work that represents the Ancient Egyptian Language. That's what one needs to study the language and the texts.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robson
Priest
Priest


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 993
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think is better that you reformulate the question, Nicolas. I'm afraid I didn't understand what do you want.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Nicolas Perrault III
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the warm welcome Lutz!

I apologize, for it seems my question was unclear.

I am not asking for the number of different hieroglyphs (i.e. I am not asking for the number of hieroglyphs on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs_by_alphabetization). The answer to that would be something like a few hundred.

I am not asking for the number of different Egyptian texts (though that would be interesting as well).

What I am asking about is the total number of glyphs (which we have found) ever carved by the ancients Egyptians. A little bit like if you were counting the total number of letters in the entirety of French texts.

Now, I don't think one should have to justify the usefulness of a question. If it's legitimate to say "who cares", then it's also legitimate to say "who cares if they don't care, I want to know!"

However, I don't think this is anywhere useless. My original idea was to consider the numbers of hieroglyphs in a dated context. Suppose (and these numbers are totally made up for the sake of argument) that we knew the following:

*For an average year in the archaic period, 100 hieroglyphs from various texts have survived
(The archaic period lasting about 300 years, this means that we have 30,000 individual hieroglyphic markings from this period)
*From the Old Kingdom, an average of 1,000 hieroglyphs per year have been recovered.
(That would be a total of 500,000 hieroglyphs from the 500 years of the Old Kingdom)
*In the First Intermediate period, we're down at 75 hieroglyphs per average year (which we have discovered)
(A total of 15,000 hieroglyphs have survived from this 200 year period)

And so on.

This would be very useful in quantifying which periods are darker (in the sense of fewer surviving writings) than others to historians.

And anneke, I would also find interesting to do the same thing towards the French language. That may be much harder though, because there are probably so much more texts!
[/img]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicolas Perrault III wrote:
Thanks for the warm welcome Lutz! ...

Sorry, but I am not the welcoming committee here...

For me it is still not really clear what you actually want to ask (what of course can be a language problem on my side):

Nicolas Perrault III wrote:
... I am not asking for the number of different hieroglyphs (i.e. I am not asking for the number of hieroglyphs on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs_by_alphabetization). ... What I am asking about is the total number of glyphs (which we have found) ever carved by the ancients Egyptians. A little bit like if you were counting the total number of letters in the entirety of French texts. ...

Where is the difference between "hieroglyph" and "glyph" for you? What is a "glyph" in your sense? I hope you do not seriously expect that anyone was ever so crazy to count every individual letter on all the found objects ?!?

Lutz
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nicolas Perrault III
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used hieroglyphs and glyphs interchangeably, don't pay attention to that (I just didn't want to use the word 'hieroglyph' for a third time in two lines).

And no, I was not expecting one lone cowboy to go into every tomb and count every hieroglyph ever carved by 3000 years of scribes. But it could have been that there was, say, an internet database, compiled by many researchers, with most or all Egyptian text. If that were the case, a computer could of done the counting.

Cheers Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicolas Perrault III wrote:
... Now, I don't think one should have to justify the usefulness of a question. ...

I do not doubt the usefulness of a question. My doubts concern the operation...

Nicolas Perrault III wrote:
...My original idea was to consider the numbers of hieroglyphs in a dated context. Suppose (and these numbers are totally made up for the sake of argument) that we knew the following:

*For an average year in the archaic period, 100 hieroglyphs from various texts have survived
(The archaic period lasting about 300 years, this means that we have 30,000 individual hieroglyphic markings from this period)
*From the Old Kingdom, an average of 1,000 hieroglyphs per year have been recovered.
(That would be a total of 500,000 hieroglyphs from the 500 years of the Old Kingdom)
*In the First Intermediate period, we're down at 75 hieroglyphs per average year (which we have discovered)
(A total of 15,000 hieroglyphs have survived from this 200 year period)

And so on.

This would be very useful in quantifying which periods are darker (in the sense of fewer surviving writings) than others to historians. ...

Also here I have my doubts... Based on the quantity we can say nothing about the quality. For example, we have for sure more texts from the 18th and 19th Dynasty than from the 11th and 12th. The time of the Middle Kingdom is, however, quite clear to see as a high time in development of language and writing. Her literary works are (and remain) formative until the end of Ancient Egyptian history.

Apart from that, the coincidence of the tradition is here hardly to estimate.

Lutz
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nefer-Ankhe
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 29 Nov 2012
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only if there were to be a 'like' option, I would have liked every single one of Lutz's posts above. Laughing

Especially
Quote:
I hope you do not seriously expect that anyone was ever so crazy to count every individual letter on all the found objects ?!?


There is no significance or benefits in recording the amount of all the individual symbols on every single stelae and etc, therefore, why would they have such a database?

[/url]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sonofthemummy
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Louisiana, USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: good questions and good responses Reply with quote

I was amazed not so much by the lack of clarity of the original question as some of the responses, that seemed to bitterly protest someone wasting the responder's time, which seems not so collegial, congenial, or courteous or even cognitive.

The CCER closed its site, officially, a few years ago, but the Extended List, a catalog of glyphs building on Gardiner's coding, remains available. Perhaps 99 per cent of all glyphs that appear in Egyptian texts are represented in this list, though I did find one, the other day, which is not.

One day there may be a catalog of the corpus of texts in the Egyptian language, but it has remained impractical because so many documents remain untranslated and many are yet even to be transcribed. Some have been destroyed by Fundamentalist vandals, of late.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dzama923
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 15 Jul 2014
Posts: 298
Location: Stamford, Connecticut

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you want to count the number of words that make up the dictionary. Words would include the symbols or heiroglyphs that carry meaning. This does not seem too out of place. We would like to be able to translate properly every bit of writing the Anicent Egyptians wrote. A fact that might be helpful to you, to know a language fluently one needs to know 2000 words, and someone who has studied rigourously in scholarly and academic pursuits will know around 10,000 words.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1031
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of opening a very old can of worms here, let me just note that in our ancient Egyptian classes, the "number of glyphs" used at various periods went like this:

Old Kingdom: roughly 2500 glyphs were in use.

By the New Kingdom, this had decreased to 1500 glyphs, due to combination of signs, dropping of archaic glyphs. etc. (Most students of ancient Egyptian are taught these NK level of glyphs.)

As the latter part of the New Kingdom passed into Third Intermediate - Ptolemaic Period, the number of glyphs increased again, reaching its zenith during Ptolemaic Period, when 5500 - 6000 glyphs were in use.

Hieroglyph software generally uses the New Kingdom sets of glyphs, but add-ons are available to increase the library up to a minimum of 5500.

However, new glyphs are still being uncovered, which means a revision of glyph libraries being done from time to time (I found use of a glyph/icon in my studies which would, due to use, qualify as a "new glyph", for example). Some hieroglyph programmes allow you to create new and/or modify combine new glyphs within their programming.

HTH.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Art and Literature All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group