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DNA and mummies KV35YL and KV55
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: issues with Huber's chart Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
There are several issues with Huber's chart.
As already often stated Meritaten as the niece of Smenchkhare does not have the right markers to confuse her DNA with that of a full sister of her father and uncle.
There is also no evidence that Yuya married more than one wife. Had he married two sisters why would they not both have been buried in the same grave with him?

It would certainly be interesting to see more DNA testing on the mummies of the 18th and 19th dynasty.
Royal women claimed their links to the Pharaoh, being his mother, sister, wife, daughter or granddaughter. Men only claimed to be sons. I've so far never read anything about a new pharaoh killing all his brothers and nephews so there must have been other male line descendants of previous pharaohs that were no longer considered members of the royal family. We might find out more about that if more mummies are tested.

The boy in kv35 presents a mystery. He is buried with two women who were mother and daughter so it is likely the boy is also closely related to them but in what manner is unknown. Do we have an age for the boy?


In his book, Huber is saying that the DNA results that we have are not accurate enough, less accurate than the results needed in law courts to proove paternity by two points in a UK court and four in a US court. So there is quite some leeway in the Amarna mummies, and in his view, what shows as full brother and sister, may in fact be neice and uncle, particularly when the other relationships around them are so close as well.

The boy has been given various ages, from about 8 to 14. A prime reason for the youngest age is because of his height compared to that of a modern boy of that age. But back then they were much shorter. The literature generally puts him at 12 or 13. Though a caveat is that he is some 11 inches short of a modern 12 year old, and I'm not sure there was that much difference between then and now. Tutankhamun was 5' 7", considered tall for those times, but is, by coincidence, the average height for a modern Egyptian man.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are all kinds of issues with Huber's chart -

1) Inventing people that are not in the historical record

2) Ignoring certain alleles between Yuya and Amenhotep III that indicate a relationship

3) The identification of KV35YL with Meritaten does not make sense when whatever her relationship to KV55 she is a daughter of AIII and Tiye. There are plenty of daughters of that pair who would be the right age (no older than 25).

4) We know from KV40 and the Amarna Letters that Amenhotep III and Akhenaten both had harem palaces - Amenhotep III definitely had other sons that until recently (KV40) have not been in the historical record. There is also the identification of "King's Daughter Taemwadjes, the one of the royal son" (KV40) which would seem to support the hypothesis that Tutankhamun was the grandson of Amenhotep III by two lesser known-known children. Although the identification of KV55 is problematic it is now less of a leap than previously to say that Smenkhakre could have been a son of Amenhotep III and Tiye.

What we need is for the KV40 remains to be DNA tested and explore how they are related to Amenhotep III (Bickel wants this to happen); ideally also test Tuthmosis IV so that we have the same number of generations mapped, allowing the theory of a relationship between AIII and Yuya to be tested.

The latter is really interesting to me and could be very revealing. If Yuya, Tuthmosis IV and Amenhotep III have shared alleles this would support long-held theories about the Akhmim family and the Royal family. If Yuya and Tuthmosis IV are unrelated then the link must be through Mutemweia who would therefore be a close relative of Yuya.

Finally, how does Huber get to KV21B being Iset?[/list]
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:


The latter is really interesting to me and could be very revealing. If Yuya, Tuthmosis IV and Amenhotep III have shared alleles this would support long-held theories about the Akhmim family and the Royal family. If Yuya and Tuthmosis IV are unrelated then the link must be through Mutemweia who would therefore be a close relative of Yuya.

Finally, how does Huber get to KV21B being Iset?[/list]


I think the Akhmins were closely intertwined with the Thutmosids, and as I mentioned earlier, served the same function of wife providers as did the Fujiwara clan in Japan to their royal family.

Huber's chart is not set in stone, it's just that charts are handy for some clarity in what is being presented. It's easy to get the picture in out heads if we actually have a picture. On Iset, well there she is on the chart, but the chart does not exist in isolation in the book. In his workings for putting Iset in that spot, he does point out that the identity of the mummy is unconfirmed, and that in his words:

"The sparse historical historical and the partly lacking genetic data do not yet allow conclusions."

I would say that he should have used more dotted lines in the chart to avoid it seeming that he is making a statement of what he believes to be fact, when the reality is that it is ambiguous.

So while I put his chart here for all to see, and disagree on of course, caution needs to be used in taking it at face value without also reading his workings. But please don't expect me to explain why everything is in the box it is in, otherwise I would have to replicate the entire book Smile
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That should of course have read.

""The sparse historical and the partly lacking genetic data do not yet allow conclusions."

And he posits that with what data we do have, then in his opinion, Iset is the best candidate. Other candidates are available of course.
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