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Horemheb
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Toth
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't HoREmheb linked to Re?

for Ranoferhotep: To answer your question: Not yet! Still roughly 2 hours to go (6RazzM == 18:00) Smile

Richard, aka
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
Isn't HoREmheb linked to Re?


Not at all: Horemheb's name means "Horus in Jubiliation" and in Egyptian is rendered as /Hr-m-Hb/, with the epithet /mry.n-Imn/ "beloved of Amun." You have to also understand there is no form of Ra's name anywhere shown in Horemheb's name, as you can see.

Considering that Horemheb comes from Herakleopolis, his local deity (called the "Lord of Hnes" in his Coronation Decree) is a localised form of the god Horus (Gardiner 1953: 14). So the association of the god Horus within his name is understandable.

Reference:

Gardiner, A. 1953. The Coronation of King Haremheb. JEA 39: 13-31.
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Toth
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
Toth wrote:
Isn't HoREmheb linked to Re?


Not at all: Horemheb's name means "Horus in Jubiliation" and in Egyptian is rendered as /Hr-m-Hb/, with the epithet /mry.n-Imn/ "beloved of Amun." You have to also understand there is no form of Ra's name anywhere shown in Horemheb's name, as you can see.

Considering that Horemheb comes from Herakleopolis, his local deity (called the "Lord of Hnes" in his Coronation Decree) is a localised form of the god Horus (Gardiner 1953: 14). So the association of the god Horus within his name is understandable.

Reference:

Gardiner, A. 1953. The Coronation of King Haremheb. JEA 39: 13-31.


And the worst thing is.. I knew that Horemheb is from Herakleopolis. Embarassed

OK, general notice: Message sent!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toth wrote:
neseret wrote:
Toth wrote:
Isn't HoREmheb linked to Re?


Not at all: Horemheb's name means "Horus in Jubiliation" and in Egyptian is rendered as /Hr-m-Hb/, with the epithet /mry.n-Imn/ "beloved of Amun." You have to also understand there is no form of Ra's name anywhere shown in Horemheb's name, as you can see.

Considering that Horemheb comes from Herakleopolis, his local deity (called the "Lord of Hnes" in his Coronation Decree) is a localised form of the god Horus (Gardiner 1953: 14). So the association of the god Horus within his name is understandable.

Reference:

Gardiner, A. 1953. The Coronation of King Haremheb. JEA 39: 13-31.



OK, general notice: Message sent!

Richard, aka


15 minutes ago I received an reply to my message to Dr. van Dijk in which he gives the following answers to my (our) questions, I will skip my questions being in Dutch, Dr. van Dijk provided his answers in English:

Dr. van Dijk wrote:
The title given to Horemheb in the Cornation Inscription is sA smsw n Hr "Eldest Son of Horus". This title is linked to the concept of divine kingship: "Horus" refers to the ruling king as the embodiment of the god Horus upon earth. Because this is so, the title does not imply that the bearer is an actual son of the king, but merely that he will be the next embodiment of Horus once the ruling king will have died and become Osiris. The situation is somewhat comparable to that of the title it-nTr, "God's Father". This title can also have various meanings and towards the end of the New Kingdom became a common priestly title (e.g. "God's Father of Amun"). In all meanings of this title the word nTr "god" refers to the divine king and certainly in the Middle Kingdom the non-royal father of a king (e.g. the founder of a new dynasty) could be called "god's father" because his son was now the living Horus on earth.
SA nsw tpy "First son of the king" can have the literal meaning of the king's first-born son, the crown prince, but it can also be an administrative or religious title. Thus a certain Amenhotep, a lowly wab priest in the cult of Thutmosis I, has the title sA-nsw tpy n aA-xpr-kA-ra "First King's Son of Aakheperkare" (= Tuthmosis I). The vice-roy of Nubia was called sA-nsw n KS as the highest representative of the king in Nubia.


Dr van Dijk on Is Horemheb Paatenemheb? wrote:
This has often been speculated, but there is no hard evidence for this assumption. The only known monument of this Paatenemheb is the unfinished doorway of an unfinished tomb (No. 24) at Amarna, with the inscriptions outlines in ink only, not sculpted. Even the reading of some of the titles is uncertain. He was 'royal scribe' (sS nsw), 'overseer of the army of the Lord of the Two Lands' (imy-r mSa n nb-tAwy) and 'steward of the Lord of the Two Lands' (imy-r pr n nb-tAwy); a further title is read as 'overseer of the army (imy-r mSa) in Akhetaten' by some, but as 'overseer of (construction) works (imy-r kAt) in Akhetaten' by others. That this is the future Horemheb is highly uncertain. Even the contention that officials during the Amarna Period as a rule changed their names when they contained a reference to the traditional gods cannot be substantiated, nor that they subsequently changed their names back to the old form after the Amarna Period. Some people did, but others clearly did not. In the New Kingdom necropolis at Saqqara there is a late-18th dynasty (but clearly post-Amarna) tomb owned by a man called Paatenemheb, who obviously saw no reason to change his name to Amenemheb, Ptahemheb or even Horemheb. The rationale behind these name changes is still unknown to us.


Dr. van Dijk on destructions being deliberate act of Horemheb wrote:
I am not sure which tomb you are referring to here. If you mean the royal tomb of Ay, the perpetrators cannot be identified with certainty, but a personal vendetta on the part of Horemheb is perhaps the most likely reason for the destruction; see p. 63 of my chapter. I tend to agree with Otto Schaden that "had Horemheb left Ay's tomb intact, in all probability the Ramessides would have done likewise"


Dr. van Dijk answering do we know where he is buried? wrote:
Horemheb was buried in his royal tomb in the Valley of the Kings, KV57. His Memphite tomb appears to have been used for the burial of his first wife, and perhaps also for his later wife, Queen Mutnodjmet, although this is far from certain. Nobody was ever buried in Tomb 24 (assuming that you mean the one at Amarna); as Davies says: "This is only the entrance to a tomb, for it has progressed no further".


Dr. van Dijk answering Anneke's questions wrote:
We can only speculate, but it is indeed very likely that Horemheb must have risen in the ranks of the military before the accession of Tutankhamun. His crown-princely titles occur prominently in the oldest construction phase of the Memphite tomb, which dates to the early years of Tutankhamun or perhaps even earlier. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was related to Tutankhamun's nurse Mutia/Maia.


I think we have enough food for thought and discussion now in one place. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is that Horemheb was designated by Tutankhamun as his heir and the hereditary prince. There is some doubt whether or not this was voluntary due to the young age of the king. When Tutankhamun died Horemheb was thought to be away fighting in Northern Syria. The Egyptian army had suffered a major defeat in the field there. At this time Horemheb had the right to take the throne, but the throne was usurped by Ay likely before Horemheb returned to Egypt. Also there is some evidence that the Queen was communicating with Egypt's enemy. In her defense, maybe she thought that Egypt was lost due to the military defeat and was trying to put the best face on it possible and prevent Egypt from being occupied. Which is an interesting speculation of itself. So after Ay died, and Horemheb did ascend to the throne, he probably had more right to do so than any other person available since known royals were out of the picture by this time.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have often wondered if Horemheb was some sort of relative of the Royal family, perhaps a cousin, however distant. The NK does not seem to have been a meritocracy. The rather romantic idea of a lowly soldier fighting his way to the throne seems unlikely at best. However, a member of the Royal family would be highly placed in the army and bureaucracy. Reaching the throne from the ranks of high nobles is a much easier task.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am reading Horemheb-The Forgotten Pharaoh by Charlotte Booth now. She appears to take the view that Horemheb worked his way up thru the ranks, so to speak , starting out at a young age training as a scribe and in the army. Possibly he was following in the footsteps of his father since this was customary to follow the same occupation as one's father as I understand. Frankly, I have always had a negative attitude regarding Horemheb based on what I had read about him previously, but the more I read about him, the more I believe that he was a relatively able Pharaoh and came along at the right time for Egypt. I think that the fact that he does not appear to have had any royal blood but was able to take over as king without a lot of force speaks well of his abilities.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cal_105 wrote:
I am reading Horemheb-The Forgotten Pharaoh by Charlotte Booth now. She appears to take the view that Horemheb worked his way up thru the ranks, so to speak , starting out at a young age training as a scribe and in the army. Possibly he was following in the footsteps of his father since this was customary to follow the same occupation as one's father as I understand. Frankly, I have always had a negative attitude regarding Horemheb based on what I had read about him previously, but the more I read about him, the more I believe that he was a relatively able Pharaoh and came along at the right time for Egypt. I think that the fact that he does not appear to have had any royal blood but was able to take over as king without a lot of force speaks well of his abilities.


I've always admired Horemheb and have always seen him as a strong and able leader. I agree with your assessment that he was there at the right time, when the kingdom needed him. LOL He may have helped himself to many of the monuments that had been carved for Tut, but quite possibly he was more concerned with the strength and stability of the kingdom than he was with starting from scratch with monuments all over the place. And possibly the fact that he was not raised to be a king and was not inculcated with the propaganda to which princes were subjected, made him abler still. That's speculation on my part.

I've also read Booth's book on Horemheb and bought it specifically because there is relatively so little on this king in the literature. However, to my disappointment I discovered that I just didn't care much for the book. I set it aside months ago and still haven't finished it. Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched a symposium presentation by the New York MET [2011] today on U-tube and it brought forth some interesting information and questions about Haremheb that I was not familiar with. Most fascinating to me is what was Haremheb's relationship with AY or AYE? From what I understand Haremheb was appointed by King Tut to be his successor and served as his deputy. However, at the time that King Tut died, Haremheb was away fighting a war with the Hittites. It was during this situation that King Tut's widow wrote a "letter" to the king of the Hittites indicating that she wanted him to send one of his royal sons to marry her since she did not want to marry one of her servants or words to that affect. Eventually this Hittite royal son was killed on the way to Egypt. Apparently AY assumed the throne during this situation. Since Tut's widow appears to have committed treason during a time of war and AY moved ahead of Haremheb to take the throne it brings up some interesting questions. Did AY and Haremheb come to some arrangement and what did they do about the widow? Was she perhaps killed or died during AY's reign. If she was still alive when Haremheb assumed the throne, he would have likely married her to have more legitimacy? It appears that Haremheb showed a lot of restraint if he was the legitimate crown prince and AY took the throne before him?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering everything itís possible to tie together some of the evidence into a theory. Firstly, Tutís body condition, secondly the length of time it took for the Hittite correspondence, third Horemheb not becoming king.

What if Tut was involved in military conflict alongside Horemheb, and was injured and later died, or was killed? If Horemheb was responsible for the protection of the king that may have put him out of favour. Death or injury on the battlefield and the time it took for travel also allows enough time for the Hittite correspondence to take place before Ay took the throne at Tutís burial.

Itís clear Tutís death was sudden and unexpected so it must have been a chaotic time. Lots about this in the EEF archives with some fascinating threads about Horemheb.
http://www.egyptologyforum.org/archeef/EEFarchives.html
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