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The Book of Am Duat - The Title of the Work
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erickench
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:07 pm    Post subject: The Book of Am Duat - The Title of the Work Reply with quote

In the book "The Egyptian Heaven and Hell" written by Budge there is a text that explains what the entire book is about. In fact it's the first text to be translated in Budge's book on page 1 of vol. 1. I think Budge blew the translation on this one where he speaks of the "beginning of the horn of Ament" and "the utmost boundary of the thick darkness" and "who praise him and of those who effect destruction". Here is my translation/summary of this section of text:


The writings and drawings of the hidden domain which appertain to the divine powers consisting of the souls, the gods, the shadows, and the spirits who causeth the heavenly bodies(or star) to move across the sky beginning in the east, then rising to the high point(zenith), and then descending in the west towards the western horizon until the last hour of darkness. Also, containing the knowledge of the souls in the places of the dead, knowledge of the secret lands, knowledge of the paths of the Dwat where the great god journeyth. Also, knowing of the time of their gods, knowing of the journeys of the stars and their gods, knowing their praises to the sun god Ra, knowing of the speech he made to them, knowing those who sing praises to them who enter.

I don't mean to sound like a troll, but does anybody care to comment on this translation.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh-oh, you mentioned Budge!

Here's a relevant book I purchased recently... but haven't had time yet to dive into, so I can't really speak intelligently about it yet:

The Egyptian Amduat: The Book of the Hidden Chamber by Erik Hornung and Theodor Abt

https://books.google.com/books?id=DEobGgAACAAJ&dq=bibliogroup:%22Studies+from+the+Research+and+Training+Centre+for+Depth+Psychology%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBj-fE5d7fAhUL04MKHV3zCKkQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg
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erickench
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a lot of Budge's books.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

" Egyptian Dreams Forum ---> Books ---> Question about Budge's dictionaries... (Post from "neseret", Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:12 pm) "

Quote:
As to what is wrong with Budge's dictionaries, there are many reasons. For one, just about all of Budge's works are outdated, and were outdated even during Budge's own lifetime, and never achieved success amongst scholars. However, this is my usual reply, when someone asks me "What is wrong with using Walis Budge's works?" ...


Edmund Meltzer : Excursus to "RED FLAGS" - The Problem with Budge
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erickench
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no doubt that Budge's translations are outdated and inaccurate, but his dictionary is the only one I can find. You have to admit it's a big two volume set and I've used it a lot. Now if you can show me another dictionary that is just as extensive then I might consider purchasing it. All I find now is glossaries in the back of books such as "Middle Egyptian" by James P. Allen.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the same post by nesret ...
Quote:
... The largest compendium of hieroglyphs is (and will continue to be, since it's an ongoing work) the Wörtberuch der Aegyptischen Sprache, which can be found in scholarly libraries for Egyptology. The full citation of this work is:

Erman, A. and H. Grapow. 1926-1982. Wörterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache. (7 Vols.) Leipzig: J. C. Hinrich.

For those who cannot afford the entire Wörtberuch, which runs about $1500 - $2500 for all 7 volumes, the next best work is this one:

Hannig, R. 1995. Die Sprache der Pharaonen: Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch-Deutsch (2800 - 950 v. Chr.). Kulturegeschichte der Antiken Welt 64. Mainz: von Zabern.

If you cannot read German, then you will have to rely - in English - for the far more limited work of Faulkner. However, even his works are far more reliable than Budge. See:

Faulkner, R. O. 1991 (1962). A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. Oxford: Griffith Institute.

with its supplement:

Shennum, D. 1977. English-Egyptian Index of Faulkner's Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. ARTANES [Aids and Research Tools in Ancient Near East Studies] I. Malibu: Undena Publications.

There are also dictionaries for ancient Egyptian to be found in other foreign languages, but realise that most Egyptologists are required to read French, German and English as part of their studies, so the German dictionaries are general considered the best of these. ...



Wörterbuch der Aegyptischen Sprache. - [Ed. Adolf Erman and Hermann Grapow]. - Volume I-V. - Berlin, 1971.

Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae (Altägyptisches Wörterbuch)


Raymond O. Faulkner : Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. - Oxford : Griffith Institute - Ashmolean Museum, 1991.

Leonard & Barbara Lesko : A Dictionary of Late Egyptian I. - Providence (RI) : BC Scribe Publications, 2002.

Leonard & Barbara Lesko : A Dictionary of Late Egyptian II. - Providence (RI) : BC Scribe Publications, 2006.

Paul Dickson : Dictionary of Middle Egyptian in Gardiner Classification Order. - San Francisco (CA) : Creative Commons, 2006.

Robert D. Bates : A Dictionary of Middle Egyptian for Students of Biblical Archaeology and Old Testament Studies. - Berrien Springs (MI) : Andrews University, 2004.[/u][/b][/url]
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erickench
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. But why is the Faulkner Dictionary appear to be handwritten and not printed with appropriate fonts? Idea
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultimately, this can only answer Faulkner, or better the publishers of the book, but I suppose that nobody wanted to do the work to edit the original manuscript ...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gardiner dictionary has just helped me solve a translation problem for the text that I posted. The word "dawn" or "Twilight" should be somewhere in there.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: The Book of Am Duat - The Title of the Work Reply with quote

erickench wrote:
... The writings and drawings of the hidden domain which appertain to the divine powers consisting of the souls, the gods, the shadows, and the spirits who causeth the heavenly bodies(or star) to move across the sky beginning in the east, then rising to the high point(zenith), and then descending in the west towards the western horizon until the last hour of darkness. Also, containing the knowledge of the souls in the places of the dead, knowledge of the secret lands, knowledge of the paths of the Dwat where the great god journeyth. Also, knowing of the time of their gods, knowing of the journeys of the stars and their gods, knowing their praises to the sun god Ra, knowing of the speech he made to them, knowing those who sing praises to them who enter.

I don't mean to sound like a troll, but does anybody care to comment on this translation.


Alexandre Piankoff : The Tomb of Ramesses VI. - [Bollingen Series 40.1]. - New York : Pantheon Books Inc., 1954. - 1: 441 p., 159 ill. ; 2: 196 pl. - 1: 230 :
Quote:
... The writings of the Hidden Chamber.
The places where the souls, the gods, the shadows, and the spirits stand. What they do. The beginning of the Horn of the West, the Gate of the Western Horizon. The end of utter darkness. The Gate of the Western Horizon.
(This is) the knowledge of the power of those of the Netherworld.
(This is) the knowledge of what they do: knowledge of their sacred rituals to RE; knowledge of the mysterious powers; knowledge of what is in the hours as well as of their gods; knowledge of what he says to them; knowledge of the gates and the ways on which the GREAT GOD passes; knowledge of the movement of the hours and their gods; knowledge of the powerful ones and the annihilated. ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erik Hornung : Das Amduat - Die Schrift des Verborgenen Raumes Herausgegeben nach Texten aus Gräbern des Neuen Reiches. - Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1963. - I - Text: XIX, 206 p., 12 pl. ; II - Übersetzung & Kommentar: 206 p. - II - Page 2 :


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "beginning of the horn of the west" statement is utter nonsense. Here's why. There are three symbols that describe the apparent path of a star during the hours of darkness. The first symbol is a lions forepart which indicates beginning. The second symbol is a set of animal horns which translates as high. The third symbol is the traditional symbol for ament(or the west).

A star begins to rise in the east. Then it reaches the zenith or high point. It then descends in the west. Of course this is all due to the earths rotation, but the ancient Egyptians believed that the movement of these heavenly bodies were caused by the divine powers.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erik Hornung : Das Amduat. - 1963. - II - Page 3 :


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karl Jansen-Winkeln : Sprachliche Bemerkungen zu den "Unterweltsbüchern". - In: Studien zur Altägyptischen Kultur - SAK 32. - 2004. - pp. 205-232. - [PDF - 17 MB].

For his translation of the title, see pages 223-226.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "beginning of the horn of the west" statement is utter nonsense. Here's why. There are three symbols that describe the apparent path of a star during the hours of darkness. The first symbol is a lions forepart which indicates beginning. The second symbol is a set of animal horns which translates as high. The third symbol is the traditional symbol for ament(or the west).

A star begins to rise in the east. Then it reaches the zenith or high point. It then descends in the west. Of course this is all due to the earths rotation, but the ancient Egyptians believed that the movement of these heavenly bodies were caused by the divine powers.
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