Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Are the pyramids really tombs or are the experts wrong
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pyramids, Tombs, & Monuments
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cladking
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:

That post is so insulting and bizarre that it should just not be allowed to stand in this forum. You damn well dare to trash giants when you have nothing but fringe garbage, and that's being very very polite.


In other words you can't address the argument so you attack the poster.

You do realize that all you or any of the giants need to do to put an end to te argument is to come up with actual physical evidence that the pyramids were tombs. Why do you get so excited about a belief you can't really defend?

I don't get excited when you say they were tombs.
_________________
Tempus Fugit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cladking
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon;

You are engaging in the same arguments as a poster on other boards who simply ignores my points and persists in attacking me personally. I will disengage from this conversation with you and future ones as well. That "other" poster would now post that I'm afraid of him and his towering intellect.

Science and reality are not determined by consensus and usually every single peer is wrong right before history changes.
_________________
Tempus Fugit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All people want is to see you present your evidence, and your continued refusal to do so is what irks everybody, that's actually a lot of people, not just one on another forum.

You asked about evidence presented by Assmann on how the pyramids were built. This shows you have not read Assmann as he does not discuss how one block of stone in placed on top of another, but what the pyramid represents, likewise with Hornung.

In fact, let's look at the index to "Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt".
For a start there is no entry for the words pyramid or pyramids, only for pyramid texts. Now let's look at what aspects of the pyramid texts he covers:

divine uniqueness
ennead
epiphanies
female doublets
"greatest god"
Horus
immortality
invocations
local gods
magic
Nut
oldest god
Ra
regeneration

Assmann briefly touches, not on construction methods, but the logistical effort. After that in his chapter on the Old Kingdom in "The Mind of Egypt" we find the following subsections dealing with pyramids, and the State in general as the two are intertwined.

Language and Architecture
The "Opening of the Stone" and Lithic Semantics
Signs and Gods
Pyramid Symbolism
Sacred Space and Chronotype
From Style to Canon
Tomb, Writing, Immortality
The Liturgical Construction of Permanence
State and Immortality

So we have two Egyptologists who deal specifically with the why, not the how, of pyramids, two Egyptologists who can read hieroglyphs and interpret the meaning of them in liturgical texts due to their vast knowledge of the subject.

Yet you dismiss them, cannot say if you can read hieroglyphs or not, provide not a scrap of evidence to support your assertions, and you really cannot see why you get the reaction you do on forums?. You can tell me that I have to provide evidence, of what precisely, until the cows come home, but it's not me putting forward some crackpot idea that needs explanation, you are, so put up your evidence and stop trying to be evasive by demanding that I or anybody else have to provide evidence, that's not how it works, except of course in the land of woo where evidence and expertise are dirty words.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Montuhotep88
Priest
Priest


Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 562
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
Science and reality are not determined by consensus and usually every single peer is wrong right before history changes.


So your proof of your correctness is that thousands of academically-trained specialists in multiple scientific fields disagree with you?

Idea
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cladking
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
cladking wrote:
Science and reality are not determined by consensus and usually every single peer is wrong right before history changes.


So your proof of your correctness is that thousands of academically-trained specialists in multiple scientific fields disagree with you?

Idea


I never said I am necessarily correct because I disagree with scientists. I said I might be correct despite disagreeing with Egyptologists. I have laid out how all the observation and logic fits an entirely different pattern and that this different pattern is better supported by the physical evidence.

Of course I am aware that there is circumstantial evidence the pyramids could be tombs but this evidence can make nothing stronger than a circumstantial case. Meanwhile the fact remains that their builders repeatedly and coherently said that the pyramids were not tombs, the kings’ grave was in the sky, and they said it all literally. Perhaps more importantly they said it in a language that is obviously not like our languages because it contains no words for belief, thought, or the organization for thought known as taxonomies.

Let me ask you this, does it make any sense at all that virtually everything that we believe about the builders was derived from a book of incantation? It’s illogical to judge a people based on a book of spells.
_________________
Tempus Fugit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Montuhotep88
Priest
Priest


Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 562
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
Let me ask you this, does it make any sense at all that virtually everything that we believe about the builders was derived from a book of incantation? It’s illogical to judge a people based on a book of spells.


I don't put any stock in the religious writings at all, apart from trying to understand what they believed. There is an overwhelming amount of direct archaeological evidence, and that's what I adhere to; and that's the only scientific basis for this that there is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Montuhotep88
Priest
Priest


Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 562
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me ask you this: why would one put a sarcophagus inside a not-tomb? Or a set of canopic jars with embalmed viscera? Even in the utterly unlikely event that they weren't conceived as tombs to begin with (which they were), they were certainly used as tombs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taking a step back, can’t the pyramids be tombs AND also an object of worship representing the king / god himself? This would fit the way that Khaemwaset for example referred to the “place of Sneferu”.

I can totally get some aspects of what Cladking says but I believe they can also be tombs.

Religious belief in Ancient Egypt definitely changed over time; but some concepts relating to death and what happened to the king and/or his spirit remained consistent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Montuhotep88
Priest
Priest


Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 562
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Taking a step back, can’t the pyramids be tombs AND also an object of worship representing the king / god himself? This would fit the way that Khaemwaset for example referred to the “place of Sneferu”.


Oh, no doubt... especially the various associated temples, chapels, and offering-places. "Pyramid Towns" like Lahun seem to have lasted considerably beyond their apparent original function as foundations for construction of the monument, and the New Kingdom "Beautiful Festival of the Valley" would certainly indicate that Egyptian necropoleis were far from empty, forboding places; there were likely people coming and going at nearly all times, I'd imagine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cladking
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Taking a step back, can’t the pyramids be tombs AND also an object of worship representing the king / god himself? This would fit the way that Khaemwaset for example referred to the “place of Sneferu”.

I can totally get some aspects of what Cladking says but I believe they can also be tombs.

Religious belief in Ancient Egypt definitely changed over time; but some concepts relating to death and what happened to the king and/or his spirit remained consistent.


Yes, indeed.

For instance I think one of the possibilities is that they actually put the cremated remains of the king inside the pyramid, perhaps for lack of a better place to place them. Technically this would make the pyramid a “tomb” in our terms.

I believe that so long as we insist in understanding everything in our own terms we might understand nothing. These people simply weren’t like us. They don’t fit our definitions and pigeon holes.
_________________
Tempus Fugit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cladking
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:


I don't put any stock in the religious writings at all, apart from trying to understand what they believed. There is an overwhelming amount of direct archaeological evidence, and that's what I adhere to; and that's the only scientific basis for this that there is.


There is no other writing!

Other than labels and titles in tombs there is only a single sentence; "Nefermaat is he who makes his gods in words that can not be erased.". Personally I believe this isn't a sentence at all but a mistranslated title. No matter what it is it doesn't really make sense in English.

The only "archaeological evidence" says they never made great pyramids and then they did. This is logically inconsistent with the pyramid tomb belief.
_________________
Tempus Fugit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cladking
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Let me ask you this: why would one put a sarcophagus inside a not-tomb? Or a set of canopic jars with embalmed viscera? Even in the utterly unlikely event that they weren't conceived as tombs to begin with (which they were), they were certainly used as tombs.


How many different ways are there to make a stone box? I would imagine that it's quite possible that all stone boxes were not "sarcophagi". I don't know but there are other possible uses for such boxes.

I know there was a place for canopic jars in Djoser's and Khafre's pyramids. I believe Djoser's pyramid was actually conceived as mastaba tomb and then converted to a great pyramid. G2 is a little more enigmatic but there are very few things that work against my theory. This is merely one of them.
_________________
Tempus Fugit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Montuhotep88
Priest
Priest


Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 562
Location: Central Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
There is no other writing!


Beg pardon? I'm quite literal-minded, so when I see a statement that says there is no writing other than religious writing [surviving from Ancient Egypt], that simply boggles my mind. There is an avalanche of other writings, from laundry lists to tax registers to personal letters, to cite only the widely-published examples.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's remind of two quotes from Cladking in this thread.

Quote:
But Egyptologists are wrong and I know because I solved the PT


Quote:
I don't believe the Ancient Language has ever been translated. Indeed, it can't be translated into any modern language because every utterance had a single meaning and nothing can be said in any modern language that has a single meaning.


Never mind the supreme arrogance shown in those quotes from a man who cannot read hieroglyphs, that he says that in the OK there were only religious texts, then, according to him, there are no laundry lists, tax registers, personal letters or anything else that is clearly not religious. I wonder though if by way of explanation we will be told that there were two languages running side by side, and Egyptologists have only the brain cells to translate the most mundane and simple texts, while Cladking alone, and this is what he says about himself, can understand the far more esoteric religious texts. But the problem is that he has said there are no religious texts in the so called by him "AL", but known to the rest of the world as Old Egyptian

Hm, nothing can be said in any modern language that has a single meaning Well I can think of some, but it would be impolite to write them here, just as the OP is impolite, in fact downright insulting as the intention is very clearly not to generate discussion, but to snear at this forum and to attempt to create an opening to propagate fringe views, an opening that has quickly been taken by a crank. That's not a personal insult, it's fact.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cladking
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
cladking wrote:
There is no other writing!


Beg pardon? I'm quite literal-minded, so when I see a statement that says there is no writing other than religious writing [surviving from Ancient Egypt], that simply boggles my mind. There is an avalanche of other writings, from laundry lists to tax registers to personal letters, to cite only the widely-published examples.


Technically, even the Pyramid Texts is not from the era that the great pyramids were built. Our earliest version is from the 5th dynasty. I believe the PT is relevant because, like most Egyptologists, I believe these were written far in the distant past.

There's Merer's Diary which is obviously from the great pyramid building age but it is very on sentences and was only recently discovered. The Palermo Stone has a few sentences on it but it's hard to know when they were composed and the source itself dates to centuries after the great pyramids. Some of the "sentences" that do exist on it are highly uncertain as to their meaning such as "birth of m(M)in". How is such a "sentence" written in a language with no words for thought or belief to be taken when it lacks even a verb?

One word "sentences" are always highly context dependent and we have injected our own contexts and our own beliefs.

Yes, I've read Strudwick but it's pretty much all from later eras. Try identifying a sentence from that era and you'll see how difficult it is.

People have the idea that these are religious magical writings but how can it be possible for people with no words for "belief", "thought", or the taxonomies we use to organize knowledge to invent a religion or believe in it? It is a non-sequitur.
_________________
Tempus Fugit
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pyramids, Tombs, & Monuments All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 4 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group