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Akhenaten and Rib-Hadda
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing

Actually, one of the things that consistently appeals to me about the Egyptians is that, generally speaking, they seem to me to have been quite direct, plain-speaking, and not at all mysterious. Their engineering was practical, their record-keeping straightforward, and their organization (generally) functional. Even their magic was quite direct-- to speak a thing is to cause it to happen, or to pour water over a magic text and then drink it is to absorb its powers, and so forth. (Obviously I'm telescoping a lot of history and culture into a few short sentences here, but I still find it generally true.)

Little touches such as realizing that an inscription on an ostrakon is a laundry list, or looking at a papyrus with temple accounts and recognizing that our electronic spreadsheets are still essentially the same idea, is what is "magical" to me-- the recognition of the familiar, or sometimes, of a familiar problem solved in a different way.
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maat
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:

What and why would a Babylonian scribe encrypt something on a cuneiform tablet, addressed to an Egyptian king?


It's not Babylonian. It's Egyptian. The political letters are contrivances. Why does anyone "encrypt" anything except to conceal somehting.
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
It's not Babylonian. It's Egyptian. The political letters are contrivances. Why does anyone "encrypt" anything except to conceal somehting.


The language is Babylonian (actually Akkadian, IIRC), which appears to be the common international tongue of diplomacy of the day. I have seen speculation that the Amarna Letters themselves may be "file copies" made by a court scribe, in which case it may have been an Egyptian scribe fluent in Akkadian who made the copy.

Have you considered the possibility that the letter is precisely what it appears to be, with no "hidden message"?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
maat wrote:
It's not Babylonian. It's Egyptian. The political letters are contrivances. Why does anyone "encrypt" anything except to conceal somehting.


The language is Babylonian (actually Akkadian, IIRC), which appears to be the common international tongue of diplomacy of the day. I have seen speculation that the Amarna Letters themselves may be "file copies" made by a court scribe, in which case it may have been an Egyptian scribe fluent in Akkadian who made the copy.

Have you considered the possibility that the letter is precisely what it appears to be, with no "hidden message"?

In addition to Montuhotep88 :

Not only the language is Babylonian, also the material the letter was written on. See for that ...

Inscribed in Clay - Provenance Study of the Amarna Tablets and Other Near Eastern Texts. - [Ed. Goren / Finkelstein / Naaman]. - Tel Aviv : Institute of Archaeology Tel Aviv University, 2004. - ISBN : 965-266-020-5. - 386 p.

... on page 36.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
"I have seen speculation that the Amarna Letters themselves may be "file copies" made by a court scribe, in which case it may have been an Egyptian scribe fluent in Akkadian who made the copy.

Have you considered the possibility that the letter is precisely what it appears to be, with no "hidden message"?


The hypothesis accepted it that is practically the other way round. I.E. that the tablets were the original material sent from abroad and that, yes, Egyptian scribes learned in "Babylonian" made versions of the letters in Egyptian (probably written on papyri now lost) to be presented to the addressees.
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maat
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
maat wrote:
It's not Babylonian. It's Egyptian. The political letters are contrivances. Why does anyone "encrypt" anything except to conceal somehting.


The language is Babylonian (actually Akkadian, IIRC), which appears to be the common international tongue of diplomacy of the day. I have seen speculation that the Amarna Letters themselves may be "file copies" made by a court scribe, in which case it may have been an Egyptian scribe fluent in Akkadian who made the copy.

Have you considered the possibility that the letter is precisely what it appears to be, with no "hidden message"?


I fully started with that consideration and inconsistencies stood out to me that made me question them. Among such inconsistencies is the apparent disrespect of tone expressed in some of the supposed letters.
I chose to examine EA13 because it stood out to me as an obvious candidate (based on familiarity from my study of other objects that also encrypt information).
The letters did not (make sense?) to me and EA13 produce the three tables. I've seen such tables before. I understand the first one but will not get into the analysis in this forum.
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
I understand the first one but will not get into the analysis in this forum.


What you call "analysis" I call "playing 'Da Vinci Code' games in order to get a desired result." What you are doing is not analysis, it isn't archaeology, and it isn't history, either.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freely after Pippi Longstocking: "I make myself the world as I like it" ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
maat wrote:
I understand the first one but will not get into the analysis in this forum.


What you call "analysis" I call "playing 'Da Vinci Code' games in order to get a desired result." What you are doing is not analysis, it isn't archaeology, and it isn't history, either.


Looking to the Amarna letters for political intrigue is ok.
"Magic" is accepted as reasonable and valid explanations about ancient Egypt.
But, to present a technical fact about EA13 is {playing 'Da Vinci Code' games)} ?

Argue that the decryption doesn't produce three tables but reconsider what qualifies as "Da Vinci Code" explanations.
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maat
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Freely after Pippi Longstocking: "I make myself the world as I like it" ...


Someone said, "magic bricks" and you believe it?
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Montuhotep88 wrote:
maat wrote:
I understand the first one but will not get into the analysis in this forum.


What you call "analysis" I call "playing 'Da Vinci Code' games in order to get a desired result." What you are doing is not analysis, it isn't archaeology, and it isn't history, either.


Looking to the Amarna letters for political intrigue is ok.
"Magic" is accepted as reasonable and valid explanations about ancient Egypt.
But, to present a technical fact about EA13 is {playing 'Da Vinci Code' games)} ?

Argue that the decryption doesn't produce three tables but reconsider what qualifies as "Da Vinci Code" explanations.


There's nothing to decrypt. You are looking for patterns, finding some (via a method that is itself problematic), and declaring that you've discovered something. When in fact you're really not doing anything more than playing letter games. It doesn't advance our knowledge of the ancient civilization one iota.
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Freely after Pippi Longstocking: "I make myself the world as I like it" ...


Someone said, "magic bricks" and you believe it?


It seems a succinct description of an ancient practice attested from many sites. It's a very different thing to say, "I think magic exists," than to say "The ancient Egyptians thought magic existed," and I am certain that you can tell that difference.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Freely after Pippi Longstocking: "I make myself the world as I like it" ...
Someone said, "magic bricks" and you believe it?

Not because "someone" says it. But because Egyptologists, on the basis of the results of their scientific digging, research and the translation of the inscriptions on these objects (which connect them with the corresponding sections of the "Book of the Dead"), proved it. Comprehensible to me personally at any time, demonstrated beyond doubt through scientific publication.
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maat
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:

There's nothing to decrypt. You are looking for patterns, finding some (via a method that is itself problematic), and declaring that you've discovered something. When in fact you're really not doing anything more than playing letter games. It doesn't advance our knowledge of the ancient civilization one iota.


Last time I checked, encryptions involve patterns and references. I find what is there. Debunk it, denounce it or disagree. All are reasonable options but sincerely consider it if you really
practice science. Don't rely on orthodoxy because it is safely popular.
The world was once believed to be flat. Galileo considered his observations against orthodoxy. Even Newton missed some considerations. Reject if you find it is wrong, not because
others write the world is flat.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, very slowly ... EA 13 is a clay tablet, made from mud from the river Euphrate in Mesopatamia, described by a Babylonian scribe in cuneiform (Akkadian, IIRC, following Montuhotep88). Informations that anyone with a computer and internet connection can verify from home, without having to go to a library ...

And again, the still unanswered question : What and why would a Babylonian scribe encrypt something on a cuneiform tablet [in Akkadian], addressed to an Egyptian king?
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