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Depictions of the solar and lunar disks

 
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:49 pm    Post subject: Depictions of the solar and lunar disks Reply with quote

On my understanding, so far from a complete understanding, the solar disk is always a free standing disk, other than being sitting on top of the head of a god or being pushed up over the eastern horizon by Khepri, and is always gold/yellow or red. Also, that the lunar disk is always supported by a crescent and is always silver. Are there exceptions to this, for instance could a solar disk, and in the context of it's use a solar disk, be shown supported by a crescent.

I ask because while I do see examples of a solar disk supported by a crescent, they are all from jewelry from KV62. Of course we are rather lacking other examples of royal jewelry like this, so what we see from KV62 may not represent the norm. For instance, I find no examples of a solar disk supported by a crescent in hieroglyphs or depictions on temple or tomb walls.

The examples from KV62 mostly involve jewelry that has as it's main motif his throne name, with the "re" element of Nebkheperure supported by a crescent, which does not appear in a single cartouche containing this name. The one example that I have found so far that does not involve his throne name is a ring showing the solar bark carrying the solar disk with a solar baboon at the prow and stern with paws raised in adoration of the rising Sun. But the solar disk is supported by a crescent. I view all of this as potentially anomalous, and curious.

So, is this actually odd, or is there a reason for this iconography that has simply passed me by in the fog?

I can think of a possible reason, but it's putting a foot into the tarpit and I hesitate to do so here.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've just discovered a ridiculous woo reason for an apparent merging of lunar and solar disks, I'll make it clear that my reason is very very different and based on what we know of ancient Egypt, not "colliding planets" for god's sake...

I very tentatively see the possibility that Tutankhamun was a both a "lunar and solar king", with this possibly originating in the solar eclipse around the time of the start of Akhenaten's reign, and though they were familiar with eclipses, Akhenaten may have used one as a mechanism for explaining the purpose of the Moon in his new religion. Yes, the Moon could already be seen as a sort of "night Sun", but it comes with a lot of baggage that does not fit into Atenism, so he may have said that the Aten has fused with the Moon, and though they then separate, the Moon is now the night manifestation of the Aten and nothing to do with Thoth, Khonsu et al.

All that belongs in the Amarna thread of course, but the original question posed about depictions of solar and lunar disks fits here.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the death scene from the royal tomb a day-time to night-time vigil is shown, which is interesting because in the night scene no moon is shown - no Aten sun disk either which is present in the first scene. I can think of this in two ways - either a literal depiction of day and night or possibly the lack of the Aten signifies the point of death.

This is also interesting in the context of Tut's jewels as there are examples showing the sun and the moon.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
In the death scene from the royal tomb a day-time to night-time vigil is shown, ...

Which room and which wall?

karnsculpture wrote:
... because in the night scene no moon is shown - no Aten sun disk either which is present in the first scene. ...

Osiris has been identified with the moon since the Old Kingdom. The theology, the otherworldly ideas of Akhenaton denies the existence of this god ...
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Room gamma the scene of the royal family mourning. The upper register shows the aten, the lower (with the same figures minus the wetnurse and baby) does not [img] http://amarnaproject.com/images/amarna_the_place/royal_tomb/5.jpg[/img]
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Room gamma the scene of the royal family mourning.

This double scene is in / from Room Alpha, Wall F. See PM IV, 1968, p. 236 ( 8 ).

karnsculpture wrote:
... The upper register shows the aten, the lower (with the same figures minus the wetnurse and baby) does not : http://amarnaproject.com/images/amarna_the_place/royal_tomb/5.jpg

The scenes do not really suit to the others in this room (on the other walls, king, queen, and princesses worship the Aten in the temple). Some of the relief carving is in the form of mere scratches (Martin / Lehner, The Royal Tomb of El-Amarna II, 1989, p. 40). The offerings in the lower register are reduced in size and number compared to above. Space reasons? The latter could also be the reason for the "lack" of the Aton disc (which is not really missing, because it is in the upper register).

By the way, Martin & Lehner assume an adaptation of this room for the burial of Kiya, as mother of Tutanchaton (baby in upper register).
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