Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Searching for Kiya
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
karnsculpture wrote:
Kiya can’t be Sitamun because she was a GRW among other titles; more likely that Sitamun could be Nefertiti IMO.


And why the heck Nefertiti never used the title of "king's daughter" (OK Kiya also didn't)?


Looking from the opposite direction, why the heck would she need to? If she was GRW of Akhenaten, then she was, well, GRW... Maybe she saw it as the best description for her, and the higher position for her to hold and laud.

I can’t help seeing those family depictions of AIII and Tiye and Akhenaten and Nefertiti as big just that, family scenes, including Nefertiti, and not merely as in-law. An intuition, not proof, but the scenes seem very familiarly intimate to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sitamun is just titled GRW on some material from Malkata, but she is shown elsewhere as King's Daughter as well, so I think it is proven that she is the same person. Once a GRW that must have trumped being a KD. Interesting that you have significantly more numbers of wine jar labels referring to Sitamun from the Malkata palace dumps than for any other person except her father. In fact if you add together the Sitamun and wine jar labels just referring to Great King's Wife without naming that queen you have a greater number than for the king. Prince Amenhotep is also attested at Malkata from Year 30 of Amenhotep III so you have the brother and sister at the same place and time.

Also bear in mind that Nefertiti had a longer name and titles as queen, so space MAY have been an issue. I'm closer to believing that Nefertiti was a KD at some point than Kiya being one, or of Kiya being another name for Nefertiti.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Sitamun is just titled GRW on some material from Malkata, but she is shown elsewhere as King's Daughter as well, so I think it is proven that she is the same person. Once a GRW that must have trumped being a KD. Interesting that you have significantly more numbers of wine jar labels referring to Sitamun from the Malkata palace dumps than for any other person except her father. In fact if you add together the Sitamun and wine jar labels just referring to Great King's Wife without naming that queen you have a greater number than for the king. Prince Amenhotep is also attested at Malkata from Year 30 of Amenhotep III so you have the brother and sister at the same place and time.

Also bear in mind that Nefertiti had a longer name and titles as queen, so space MAY have been an issue. I'm closer to believing that Nefertiti was a KD at some point than Kiya being one, or of Kiya being another name for Nefertiti.


That proximity of Sitamun and Akhenaten at Malkata is definitely something to be noted IMO. The prominence of Sitamun and complete disappearance of Sitamun is striking too IMO. And all those brother-sister connections make me wonder how such a prominent Heiress as Sitamun wouldn’t kind of naturally be married to the Crown Prince with Tiye close at hand. Strengthening the royal bloodline, so to speak. I see no room for a non-Royal ‘Kiya’ in an equation of this kind. But Kiya as a pet name for Sitamun does not seem implausible. The name she might use when Sitamun was no longer appropriate and ‘Neferneferuaten Nefertiti ’ not yet quite arrived at. Though Kiya as ‘one’ of Nefertiti’s names, might be plausible too. I can’t easily reconcile Akhenaten being plonked in a secondary wife’s coffin.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t think they’d have a pet name in religious inscriptions. Kiya is only royal due to her relationship with the king.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two bold statements, my friend!

What is Kiya doing in religious inscriptions in the first place? She has no place there IMO as a secondary wife in the Atenist experiment. It’s all about Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

Your evidence for saying Kiya is non-royal?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s not just about Akhenaten and Nefertiti. It’s about the followers too and Kiya is a valid representative - no ankh signs for her - she’s an elevated ordinary person, a beloved wife with a pet name, maybe a foreign princess at most. Her status is different to the queen and Sitamun who are always shown with their titles. She’s a different person clearly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
It’s not just about Akhenaten and Nefertiti. It’s about the followers too and Kiya is a valid representative - no ankh signs for her - she’s an elevated ordinary person, a beloved wife with a pet name, maybe a foreign princess at most. Her status is different to the queen and Sitamun who are always shown with their titles. She’s a different person clearly.


You seem certain. I am nowhere near as certain. What’s clear to you is by no means so clear to me. Which is not say you may turn out to be correct. I am open to where evidence ultimately leads.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some quotes from a Boundary Stela: Amarna Project.


The king addresses his gathered courtiers:
‘As the Aten is beheld, the Aten desires that there be made for him [...] as a monument with an eternal and everlasting name. Now, it is the Aten, my father, who advised me concerning it, [namely] Akhetaten. No official has ever advised me concerning it, not any of the people who are in the entire land has ever advised me concerning it, to suggest making Akhetaten in this distant place. It was the Aten, my fath[er, who advised me] concerning it, so that it might be made for Him as Akhetaten... Behold, it is Pharaoh who has discovered it: not being the property of a god, not being the property of a goddess, not being the property of a ruler, not being the property of a female ruler, not being the property of any people to lay claim to it....’

‘I shall make the “House of the Aten” for the Aten, my father, in Akhetaten in this place. I shall make the “Mansion of the Aten” for the Aten, my father, in Akhetaten in this place. I shall make the Sun Temple of the [Great King's] Wife [Nefernefruaten-Nefertiti] for the Aten, my father, in Akhetaten in this place. I shall make the “House of Rejoicing” for the Aten, my father, in the “Island of the Aten, Distinguished in Jubilees” in Akhetaten in this place... I shall make for myself the apartments of Pharaoh, I shall make the apartments of the Great King's Wife in Akhetaten in this place.’

‘Let a tomb be made for me in the eastern mountain of Akhetaten. Let my burial be made in it, in the millions of jubilees which the Aten, my father, has decreed for me. Let the burial of the Great King's Wife, Nefertiti, be made in it, in the millions of yea[rs which the Aten, my father, decreed for her. Let the burial of] the King's Daughter, Meritaten, [be made] in it, in these millions of years.’

Are these the first recorded mentions of ‘Akhenaten’, ‘Neferneferuaten Nefertiti’ and ‘Meritaten’? And, in fact, is this around the time their Atenist (Akhetaten) names were revealed - even ‘coined’?

Interesting mention of rulers AND female rulers... ‘not being the property of a ruler, not being the property of a female ruler’.... I also think I recall some mention that Akhenaten would not move from Akhetaten even if his queen advised it. Must find that. Do I detect an unusual ‘respect’ for his Queen in all this? Did he see his wife as a ruler who he ‘over-ruled’? Showing his position, but acknowledging hers nonetheless; like she was the Heiress he married to solidify his right to rule? Yet, in the subtext, do I see his ultimate deference and respect (and love) for her, that we see in all those ‘duopoly’ scenes and family scenes all over the place at Akhetaten?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NB Maybe an explanation for Neferneferuaten Nefertiti not being listed as Kings daughter is because she was ‘Atens’ daughter, as Akhenaten is the ‘goodly child of the Aten’, or some such?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some quotes from a Boundary Stela: Amarna Project.


The king addresses his gathered courtiers:
‘As the Aten is beheld, the Aten desires that there be made for him [...] as a monument with an eternal and everlasting name. Now, it is the Aten, my father, who advised me concerning it, [namely] Akhetaten. No official has ever advised me concerning it, not any of the people who are in the entire land has ever advised me concerning it, to suggest making Akhetaten in this distant place. It was the Aten, my fath[er, who advised me] concerning it, so that it might be made for Him as Akhetaten... Behold, it is Pharaoh who has discovered it: not being the property of a god, not being the property of a goddess, not being the property of a ruler, not being the property of a female ruler, not being the property of any people to lay claim to it....’

‘I shall make the “House of the Aten” for the Aten, my father, in Akhetaten in this place. I shall make the “Mansion of the Aten” for the Aten, my father, in Akhetaten in this place. I shall make the Sun Temple of the [Great King's] Wife [Nefernefruaten-Nefertiti] for the Aten, my father, in Akhetaten in this place. I shall make the “House of Rejoicing” for the Aten, my father, in the “Island of the Aten, Distinguished in Jubilees” in Akhetaten in this place... I shall make for myself the apartments of Pharaoh, I shall make the apartments of the Great King's Wife in Akhetaten in this place.’

‘Let a tomb be made for me in the eastern mountain of Akhetaten. Let my burial be made in it, in the millions of jubilees which the Aten, my father, has decreed for me. Let the burial of the Great King's Wife, Nefertiti, be made in it, in the millions of yea[rs which the Aten, my father, decreed for her. Let the burial of] the King's Daughter, Meritaten, [be made] in it, in these millions of years.’

Are these the first recorded mentions of ‘Akhenaten’, ‘Neferneferuaten Nefertiti’ and ‘Meritaten’? And, in fact, is this around the time their Atenist (Akhetaten) names were revealed - even ‘coined’?

Interesting mention of rulers AND female rulers... ‘not being the property of a ruler, not being the property of a female ruler’.... I also think I recall some mention that Akhenaten would not move from Akhetaten even if his queen advised it. Must find that. Do I detect an unusual ‘respect’ for his Queen in all this? Did he see his wife as a ruler who he ‘over-ruled’? Showing his position, but acknowledging hers nonetheless; like she was the Heiress he married to solidify his right to rule? Yet, in the subtext, do I see his ultimate deference and respect (and love) for her, that we see in all those ‘duopoly’ scenes and family scenes all over the place at Akhetaten?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 302

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
NB Maybe an explanation for Neferneferuaten Nefertiti not being listed as Kings daughter is because she was ‘Atens’ daughter, as Akhenaten is the ‘goodly child of the Aten’, or some such?


Possible, and Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten was only referred to as a king's son while a prince, so if Nefertiti was GRW as she was in her lifetime, that would easily trump her being a princess. The Egyptians in their own lifetimes tended to only specify their then current highest status. Only on posthumous depictions do we sometimes see someone's full background, or when they were for example elevated thanks to a son or daughter becoming king or queen. What we lack of course is anything naming her as a princess before she was queen. However that is overcome by the argument that she would not have been the only person to have changed her name.

We know for a fact that there were many royal daughters of Amenhotep III, whether with Tiye or not, as at least 8 are depicted in significant contexts in his reign (Year 30 jubilee and on statuary) - but we don't have all 8 names or the names of all of the mothers as it cannot be assumed that they were all daughters of Tiye. If Nefertiti was a daughter of AIII and Sitamun for example, the results of any medical investigations and DNA tests would not reveal any difference between someone of that lineage and a full daughter of AIII and Tiye.

Comparing with Tiye, who had nearly the same status (GRW but not seen in a similar context as a male ruler unlike Nefertiti) she used her status as a way to elevate the status of her commoner parents. If Nefertiti was already a princess and queen, and if her parents were AIII and Tiye or another Sitamun (for example), she would have absolutely no need to do that. Add to that the Aten in the mix and you have good reasons not to state who her parents were - everybody would know anyway.

Again comparing to Tiye, but in a slightly different context you have the figures of Ay and Tey whose status is elevated by their close association to Nefertiti herself. Ay also has another status in relationship to the king (God's Father) - which he carried all the way through to his later throne names. Tey was Nefertiti's wetnurse - quite simple. Ay is another matter which is why there has been so much speculation about him. I just don't see him as Nefertiti's father as I would assume that if he were, again citing the example of Yuya and Tiye, there would be no reason not to say so. Nefertiti's sister Mutenberet could also of course be a Royal Daughter but in the context she is shown, her highest status is sister of Nefertiti (after the death of AIII).

Very confusing indeed though given that we also have Baketaten on the scene who is called a royal daughter but not king's sister or her parents named. Baketaten is only shown with Tiye so must have been her daughter or granddaughter presumably by Sitamun. Compare Baketaten to Mutenberet and you have a potential contradiction except that we never see Mutenberet in the same scenes as Tiye, and we never see Baketaten except with Tiye. Therefore we can't realistically compare the two, although both must be royal if Nefertiti is. In both cases they seem to derive their status from their closest relationship to the royal family in the scenes they are shown in.

So to conclude Nefertiti is either a full daughter of AIII and Tiye (certainly so if KV35), a daughter of AIII and one of his daughters (also possible if she is KV35) OR she is the daughter of AIII and an unknown wife not related to Tiye. The final possibility is that she is none of those things but that completely goes against her being KV35, or any blood relative of Tutankhamun. It is unlikely that a foreign princess would have a wetnurse, so in that case she is someone elevated, like Tiye, through a marriage to the king - in which case why not name her parents? And why do Ay and Tey NOT say that they are her actual parents?

Going back to Kiya you have much less to go on - everything about her status is directly linked to the king and the aten - nothing else. The fact that she has a daughter or daughters with the king is also significant. I am reminded of Ramesses II and Amenhotep III having at least 2 GRW at the same time and perhaps Kiya was destined for that role as well, but is never called that, just beloved and a child of the Aten. The latter may be significant as Amenhotep III before and after his death was associated with the Aten as he was deified. Perhaps that is a key thing here - Kiya may have been a "child of the aten" literally i.e. the sister-wife of Akhenaten and therefore a strong candidate for KV35 and the mother of Tutankhamun. That would make her a genuine threat to Nefertiti and her daughters which could potentially explain her early demise, and subsequently her erasure from the record, and the reason we have no named mother later on for Tut, who was linked to the daughter of Nefertiti - the key player, along with Ay (I believe) in the immediate post-Amarna period.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got to say, that is well put together and thought out. A lot to digest at once, but that’s good. So I won’t address your ideas and information just now, but will likely go over it a few times, and maybe address points as I go.

I am continuing to research. You will not be surprised to know I am still trying to see how Kiya can be Nefertiti. Seeking not so much to prove it is the case, as much as to see if it holds up, full stop, and if there is anything in the evidence that straight out discount the idea.

I note your comment about Akhenaten being ‘child’ of Aten. From memory, Kiya I think is also referred to as ‘child’ of the Aten too. I think maybe ‘goodly child’ is what they both are called, but maybe th was just Akhenaten, and I have afalse memory. Will need to check.

Anyway, thinking of your post, I cross my fingers that the ghost of the Carter Box lives on!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ayrton
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 06 Jan 2017
Posts: 156

PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed this on Ancient Origins under Kiya:

“‘The Great Beloved Wife' is a unique title in the history of Egypt.”

I wonder if ‘beloved of Waenra’ is a unique a title, too? 🤔
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Page 5 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group