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KV62 West Wall Niche Question
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Lutz wrote:
irt-akhu wrote:
maat wrote:
I read it as 'see all lords' (as spoken), a command.

Wouldn't that be m3(3) nbw nb?

maat wrote:
... Gardiner (V30, D4 and Z3) arranged vertically with a horizontal oval to right side ...




An epithet of the king, similar used as "Lord of the Two Lands", "Lord of the Crowns", etc. With "a horizontal oval" nobody can do anything ... Gardiner name, please.

... The order of symbols differs from the set I observed as ir occurs in the top position. ...

The hieroglyphic group was put together according to your information ("... Gardiner (V30, D4 and Z3) arranged vertically ...").
maat wrote:
... You might want to examine the source yourself ...

I’d love to, if you’d (for a change) give a source ...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
maat wrote:

Yes, my findings and positions disagree with some of the status quo.

Your findings and positions do not disagree with some of the status quo, they are entirely at odds with the status quo and reality.

I think you know that your posts have no place in this forum, and that you are playing games here...


Actually, what I think is that you and others in this forum are intelligent and obviously knowledgeable to be able to reason and determine for yourselves the merits of my observations and findings whether you agree or reject them.
I recognize that I have not approached from the classical Egyptological perspective but this has let me recognize some aspects of Egypt without some biases in the formal discipline. I do see differences that are fundamental. Where yov for example immediately see Nut, I see a female figure with choice symbols and have tested my observation because I do not start in thinking I know.
You see the goddess Nut but do you see Geb in the Treasury and the four sons of Horus in the burial chamber?
If you don't understand my positions then I have not done well to convince you but I still think you are sincerely interested to learn about Egypt otherwise you would not waste your time having learned all that you know.
While I might be an imperfect source of information in the classical tradition, there is a perspective on Egypt that the classical tradition has missed. I recognized it from curiosity, not to go publish.
While I don't present everything, I still think you will eventually recognize. If you don't, that happens but at least I will have tried to have it considered.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
While I don't present everything

You have not properly presented anything, you have not explained the terminology you have concocted, despite my asking. On the few things where you have put forward an alternate explanation, such as saying that Osiris is Neith and that Nut is offering choices and not pouring a libation, instead of explaining why you think this, you make obscurantist statements. Another example of obscurantism is this quote from your post:
Quote:
You see the goddess Nut but do you see Geb in the Treasury and the four sons of Horus in the burial chamber?


How about stating what you see and why you see it, instead of asking us to essentially guess what your "secret" information is. Try to explain fully just one thing about KV62 that you think is not what it outwardly seems. A good example would be for you to explain precisely why you think that the image that is so obviously Osiris, is Neith. So please, surprise by laying out your reasoning in clear terms, and supported by evidence, and in this case one piece of evidence would be another example of Neith hiding behind the mask of Osiris, and about which there is consensus within Egyptology.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
maat wrote:
You want something original, Egyptian and context sensitive?
Look in KV62 (burial chamber) to the north wall, left (west end) section of the mural. Identify the mummy with the red 'X'.
I will explain it.

Will your explanation run counter to it being Osiris, and the name of the god is by the mummy, and that it has the facial features of Tutankhamun in order to show that with the greeting of the king with the god, the king merges, as Ra, with Osiris. [...]


I noted that the red 'X' indicates Neith. Following is an exercise to demonstrate the reference.

Under items that Howard Carter captioned as “Miscl. objects found in rubbish filling passage” was a bronze arrowhead the was numbered as 012n.
[The Griffith Insitute, Oxford, UK. http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/012n.html]

Carter also found an arrow shaft, no tip and no point inside the antechamber. He noted “49 Arrow”, “Position. On couch No 35”, “Description. Reed arrow, no feathers, no tip, broken.”, “Remarks. Thrown away.”
[http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/049-c049.html]

I don’t know if Carter meant that he threw away the item or if he considered it as having been discarded but it was an important reference in the tomb.

The two references alone and with others (if needed) informed that arrows are significant in the tomb.

They inform about the importance of pointless and flightless arrows (essentially arrow shafts) as a reference.

Conceptually, an arrow with no point or flight (feathers) is still an arrow if to be used with a bow.

Following this concept, the red "X" on the mummy in the burial chamber represents "two crossed arrows", symbolic of Neith. [Wilkinson 157]

The missing arrow points are negative inclusions that indicate a significant reference. Why and what for?

On north wall of the burial chamber, draw a line from center of the red ’X’ to eye of the Sem priest.

Observe that the line passes through top of the stick drawn at middle of the north wall. The stick has an eye like the eye of a needle.

Conceptually, a line (string) passes through eyes of needles. This informs to draw lines to connect eyes that occur in the mural.

Draw a second line from the 'eye' of ankh to eye of the Sem priest, then from ankh to eye of the figure who holds ankh. Finally, extend a line between eye of the figure and eye of the priest.

The result is an arrow from Neith. 'X' in this case does mark the spot - from which the arrow proceeds.

Will you believe your eyes if not the ancient ones?
You can't begin to imagine what ancient Egypt involves and I'm trying to offer you clues because you are trying to follow magic references that are not real.
-
Wilkinson, Richard H. The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt. New York: Thames & Hudson, 2003.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
The appendix from Gardiner's book containing his sign list is available online as a pdf. As far as learning hieroglyphs, I think Prof Bob Brier's online lectures are much better than going through C&M (not really the best book), Allen or Hoch on one's own.


I was aware of this last time but went to Wikipedia and ran out of time on a public computer before I could look it up.

I took a look online (http://www.egyptianhieroglyphs.net/gardiners-sign-list/low-narrow-signs/) and came up with Gardiner D12.

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
A good example would be for you to explain precisely why you think that the image that is so obviously Osiris, is Neith. So please, surprise by laying out your reasoning in clear terms, and supported by evidence, and in this case one piece of evidence would be another example of Neith hiding behind the mask of Osiris, and about which there is consensus within Egyptology.


No. I don't think it's published yet for you to find consensus but I have put forward the explanation.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your "observations" have nothing to do with Egyptology. It's all in your head ... Maybe you have to reset your medication?


The red crosses are a stylization of the "packaging" (the outer mummy bandages):


A = KV 62 - Tutankhamun before Osiris; B = Queen Isimkhabiou's mummy (Cairo CG 61093, DB 320).

On both, Osiris and the Queen’s mummy, a kind of "scarf", which is crossed over the breast, is clearly visible. Elliot Smith : The Royal Mummies (1912) on page 107 describes the mummy of the queen ...
Quote:
... Each bandage is composite, being formed of linen of two different colours, a deeper bandage (red) folded upon itself to form a ribbon ...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:


I noted that the red 'X' indicates Neith. Following is an exercise to demonstrate the reference.

To follow on from Lutz's post, and reiterate my earlier post, the red cross straps, stole, or whatever other name, are specific to mummies, and Neith has no connection to mummies, or Osiris. If the straps on the KV62 north wall representation of Osiris indicate, as you suggest, that they are in fact crossed arrows and so the image is that of Neith, then what about the at least 20 images of Osiris in the Temple of Sety I at Abydos which have these red straps. On your reckoning they must all be Neith, something I'm sure you will admit is simply not possible. Also, to show that the red cross straps are associated only with mummies, in the chapel of Amun-Ra at Abydos we have a depiction of that god as a mummiform figure, and on his chest are red cross straps, can Amun-Ra also be Neith, no, of course not, and neither is that image of Osiris in KV62.

I do appreciate that you have now come forth with an explanation, but it falls at the first hurdle.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My reference for the images of Osiris and Amun-Ra at Abydos with red cross straps comes from "Temple Ritual at Abydos" by Rosalie David, published by The Egypt Exploration Society in 2018. This work reproduces all the images and text at the Abydos temple.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright. I should have said that the red 'X' associates the mummy with Neith.
But I don't think that would have made a diffence.
As I have been told again, it's my imagination.
So, I will let matter alone.
Best wishes and happy new year.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
maat wrote:
Ikon, your account about the eleventh hour is new to me. It obviously involves the oars
and positional hour references. I recognize it as suggestive guidance. There are many suggestive, informative and confirmatory guidance references involved.

If you have been studying this for years and written many hundreds of pages about it, it's odd that you are unfamiliar with the eleventh hour, and odder yet that you are convinced it "obviously involves oars". There is not a single oar in sight, or mentioned in the text, in this hour.
...

I revisit this post because I obviously failed to answer that there are references to oars in the west wall's mural. It may be that I did not give answer because I had not yet noted the four sons of Horus are in the west wall position.

The following answers the concern that there "is not a single oar in sight, or mentioned in the text, in this hour."

The four sons of Horus are referenced in the west wall position in the burial chamber of Tutankhamun. I have explained this in other posts and threads.

The four sons of Horus are also known as the 'four rudders of heaven'. I will reference Wikipedia because I don't have on hand my note to Faulkner's
Book of the Dead. So, reference Wikipedia > Hapi (son of Horus).

Duamutef is in the hour (9 and 11) with the west wall's niche.
Hapi with baboon head is the baboon in the same frame.
Qebehsenuef with head of falcon is at top right (ambiguously as one with Horus).
All are there involved in several constructs for several reasons (that I have not all explained).

Hapi has a rudder hieroglyph in his written name.

These three 'sons of Horus' references pertain as 'rudders of heaven' to relate the 11 oars on floor of the burial chamber to the west wall mural. It is one among several references to relate the oars to the west wall.

I first had to explain that the sons of Horus were in the west wall position and why before I could begin to explain their common associations.

The explanations are complexly involved. So, I do not rush to try to explain and often withhold from what needs foundational introduction.

The oars in fact do have reference in the west wall position.
The involved elements and references first must be recognized.
Sometimes, they are missed.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
maat wrote:
Ikon wrote:
There is not a single oar in sight

Context of the reference is the burial chamber.

The context of my reply was to you stating that the eleventh hour of the Amduat has a clear reference to oars, and it does not, and neither is there any known connection between the oars in the KV62 burial chamber and the eleventh hour, or any other specific hour.


Please see preceding post where I try to explain that the sons of Horus are references in the west wall position to oars..
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
After a tomb is sealed nobody is meant to enter it again, not even until the end of the universe. That they get robbed or reused is by the by as the contents of the tomb, including what is on the walls, is not for the benefit of intruders, and by benefit I mean that what the objects are and stand for are for the dead tomb owner alone. Therefore there is nobody to be deceived as nothing in the tomb is for the living to wander around gawking at. There is nothing about the tomb for any interloper to learn, and that is in the context of ancient Egyptian civilisation, not us in modern times where we use to tomb to learn about their culture, not it's purpose at all.

Therefore, for you to come up with this reply,
Quote:
You repeatedly ask who the tomb is meant to decieve and I have replied, anybody who will not learn about it

Is deliberately obscurantist, as is the manner in which you put forth your contention that the figure of Osiris is Neith. Your contention that Nut is not pouring a libation is simply you saying it is so without, as usual, providing a shred of evidence.

I have no problem grappling with reality, but you on the other hand have some serious issues with what is known of ancient Egypt, issues that put you beyond the bounds of reality and common sense.

I was avoiding the Nut reference but let me try directness.

Pouring forth water is an aspect of the representation that is understandable.
It has another aspect that will be very difficult for many to accept.

The goddess Nut (or female as I often call her) in the north wall mural holds light in her hands as one short and one long waveform.

The waveforms symbolize wavelengths of light.
The ancient Egyptians measured wavelengths of light.
Ridiculous, no? I will skip the long explanation (that is too long to post in full and useless if it is incomplete).

Take the cubic volume in meters of each of the four burial shrines (include the covered wooden frame that was in the shrines). Divide each volume by
1 073 741 824.

It's a constructed reference that informs very specifically in technical terms about light.

What does it tell about the ancient Egyptians?

If not more, such information is what a civilization might put into what we today call a time capsule to preserve a record of achievements of our civilization, in our history and perhaps in human history.

The king (tomb) might be considered as the keeper of certain knowledge of his people through time. If such knowledge were needed to be referenced or recovered, the 'tomb' could be accessed.

When in modern history did our world begin to measure wavelengths of light?
That is hypothetically when in our modern history that our world would have become enabled to recognize the ancient Egyptian construct in the tomb of Tutankhamun ,
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that I also did say that Nut holds choice symbols in her hands.
This is another aspect of the symbols.

Each aspect is valid and applicable to and within each of several informative constructs.

I note the involved references are complex because they are involved each in several references.

Qebehsenuef is Horus
Duamutef is Anubis is Wepwawet
Osiris is Neith
Hapi is a solar baboon
Water is choice is light
and all are valid and functionally applicable.

The complexity is mind -bending because there is extreme precision that all the references are related and work together to proceed from one to another.
The ancient Egyptians are not as has been traditionally thought.
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