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Hours of Day (4, 8, 10, 11)?

 
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maat
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:42 pm    Post subject: Hours of Day (4, 8, 10, 11)? Reply with quote

Shutdowns due to the virus leave me with no library acces and very minimal internet and I need to get information. No PDF and limited Internet access.
I know nothing about the 12 Hours of Day (Not 'night'), found a reference, and need to know about hours 4, 8, 10 and 11.
Can anyone tell me about them or recommend a website I might be able to access?
Thanks.
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is your reference the Books of the Sky (18th or 19th Dynasty, New Kingdom)?
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps a translation of KV9 (Ramses VI) has what you are looking for.
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maat
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
Perhaps a translation of KV9 (Ramses VI) has what you are looking for.

The reference I encountered occurs in an unknown construct in the late 18th dynasty.
If you have read my posts then you will know that I follow references that can seem very strange in the classical view of Egyptology. So, I will spare you from my specific details.
I find references as I study known finds for new aspects. New details arise as if pulling on a string that extends from darkness. Hours of day first arose in general then the hours of day 4, 8, 10 and 11 are specified. It is not a known source and I need to learn about the hours to try to understand any applicable significance.
I had never before encountered hours of day references, know in general they exist in Egyptian text, and I need to begin to learn about hours of day.
I was thinking to look into An Egyptian Book of Hours [Faulkner] but cannot access anything online (not even JSTOR). I'm still 3G in 4G Internet. So, I welcome any reference I can start with at this time.
I don't know if translations or original texts differ between sites or periods. Ramesses VI although later might be applicable. I think any help will be useful at this time.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alexandre Piankoff :

Le Livre du Jour et de la Nuit. - [Avec un Chapitre sur l'Ecriture Enigmatique par Étienne Drioton]. - Cairo : IFAO, 1942. - XII, 135 p., 9 pl.

The Tomb of Ramesses VI. - New York : Pantheon Books, 1954. - Vol.1 - Texts : 441 p., 157 ill. - Vol.2 - Plates : 196 pl.

Marcus Müller-Roth : Das Buch vom Tage. - Fribourg / Göttingen : Academic Press / Vandenhoeck Ruprecht, 2008. - 644 p.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tombs of the South Asasif Necropolis - New Discoveries and Research 2012-14. - Cairo / New York : The American University in Cairo Press, 2017. - ISBN : 9789774167249. - XXII, 374 p.
Quote:
This volume is the second joint publication of the members of the American-Egyptian South Asasif Conservation Project, working under the auspices of the Ministry of Antiquities and directed by Dr. Elena Pischikova. The project is dedicated to the clearing, restoration, and reconstruction of the tombs of Karabasken (TT 391) and Karakhamun (TT 223) of the 25th Dynasty, and the tomb of Irtieru (TT 390) of the 26th Dynasty, on the West Bank of Luxor. This volume covers the three seasons of work of the project from 2012 to 2014.

Essays by the experts involved in the work of the project concentrate on new archaeological finds, reconstruction of the tombs' decoration, and introduction of the high officials who usurped the tombs of Karakhamun and Karabasken in the 26th Dynasty. The volume focuses particularly on the reconstruction of the ritual of the Hours of the Day and Night and Book of the Dead 125 and 32 in the tomb of Karakhamun, the textual program of the tomb of Karabasken, as well as Coptic ostraca, faience objects, pottery, and animal bones found in the necropolis.


Christian Greco : The Forgotten Tomb of Ramose at Sheik 'Abd el-Qurna - TT 132. - In: L'Egitto in età Ramesside - Atti del Convegno Chianciano Terme 17-18 Dicembre 2009. - Milano : Silvana Editoriale, 2011. - pp. 53-65.
Quote:
Ramose was a high official of the 25th Dynasty. His tomb (TT 132) has long been neglected and is rarely documented in the Egyptological literature. Though it has received little attention, the decorated vault of the tomb of Ramose is of great importance because it contains a version of the Book of the Day and of the Book of the Night, both of which are well known in the Ramesside version (KV 9 and KV 6). In TT 132, the texts of the hours and of the gates do not follow the canonical order, and they present many difficulties of interpretation. The words are not disposed in a logical order within a sentence, and fragments of text belonging to different hours are mixed together. The cryptic orthography of a word does not always correspond to that of the word in Normalschrift. The determinatives are unusual and the normal reading order of the signs is altered on occasion, creating disturbances in the text. An explanation of these transpositions can be found in the retrograde writing. The reading direction of a text copied in retrograde writing is the opposite of the usual one. It is therefore plausible to suppose that an artist creating the decoration of the tomb, having to copy a text written in retrograde writing and not being familiar with this system, could have copied it backwards, starting from the end. Such a method could work perfectly when the artist transferred the text to the wall while keeping the same number and height of columns as on the papyrus from which he was copying. But when the arrangement of the text varied, the artist, who probably did not know the text and started from its end, altered the order and layout of the columns creating a text that needs major emendation if it is to be interpreted.

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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your best bet as I mentioned earlier is the Book of the Day, which appears in KV9 (Ramses VI). Good find by Lutz with a couple of Theban Tombs that also had the Book of the Day. Between these three tombs, hopefully you find an online book with some good photos. Should be a lot of fun translating. Will keep you out of trouble for awhile.
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Le Livre du Jour / The Book of the Day / Das Buch vom Tage

Thebes : KV 9 - Ramses VI., KV 6 - Ramses IX., TT 132 - Ramose.

Tanis : NRT I - Osorkon II.

Sarcophagi : Anchefenchons (I.) (CG 41001), Neseramun (II.) (CG 41002), Tabatja (CG 41009), Tjesmutperet (CG 41014), Hor (XVI.) (CG 41017), Gatseschen (III.) (CG 41018), Anchhor (III.) (Leiden RO III), Djedthotefanch (Oxford 1895.153), Usai (Bologna KS 1957), Iahtesnacht, Heribsens, Tauher (MMA 86.1.30), "Widdersarkophag" (CG 29792).

We find extraordinary parallels in texts from : The Sun Sanctuarys in Medinet Habu & Taharqa in Karnak, Ostrakon DeM 1197, Hour Ritual in Edfu-Temple Pronaos.


Text in Hieroglyphs, Translation in French : Piankoff, Le Livre du Jour et de la Nuit, 1942, Le Livre du Jour : pp. 1 - 30.

Translation in English : Piankoff, The Tomb of Ramesses VI, 1954, The Book of Day : Vol.1 - pp. 389 - 407.

For his editions Piankoff only takes into account the texts from KV 9 - Ramses VI.

Müller-Roth, Das Buch vom Tage, 2008 offers the first edition taking into account all of the above named sources (Texts in Hieroglyphs, Transcribtion, Translation in German).[/b]
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Piankoff book goes for about $600. For some reason, Egyptology books go for big bucks.
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu and Lutz, thank you for the references. I think they will be good once I can access one.
I am still hobbled but while searching to find one of your references that I might access, I found a preliminary hint about the possible significance of the 'hours of day' references that I am looking into at https://henadology.wordpress.com/theology/netjeru/iaqs/
The brief information about the gods Iaqs and Hepwy appears to be relevant. Again, I will spare you a seemingly strange explanation. I still have to find and study your recommended references. The initial hint is informative to me and suggests the fuller texts will be interesting.

Just in passing (no need to reply to this), find a photo of the mural on north wall of the burial chamber of Tutankhamun. Examine the space between the two male figures that greet the X-mummy. Then in the center scene, examine the area between the male who holds the walking stick and the mummy that stands before the Sem priest. Do you see anything? No reply.

Thanks again for the references.
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maat
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
I think your best bet as I mentioned earlier is the Book of the Day, which appears in KV9 (Ramses VI). Good find by Lutz with a couple of Theban Tombs that also had the Book of the Day. Between these three tombs, hopefully you find an online book with some good photos. Should be a lot of fun translating. Will keep you out of trouble for awhile.

Archaeologists get to dig up dirt. Why would I want to stay out of trouble and miss such fun?
Cheers.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
That Piankoff book goes for about $600. For some reason, Egyptology books go for big bucks.

Since all three books (Piankoff, 1942/54 & Müller-Roth, 2008) are on my computer hard drive as PDF`s, I would say it's ultimately just a question of searching the internet ... Cool
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