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Cartouche question

 
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Fof
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 11:50 am    Post subject: Cartouche question Reply with quote

Guys
While in lockdown, I decided to restructure and review the notes attached to the photos I have.
Among them are some taken in Egypt 1998/99, whose notes definately needed revisiting. Shocked
[img]https://ibb.co/dgftsmS[/img]
Cartouche of Tuthmoses III at Hatshepsut's Mortuary Temple.
Looking through Budge, I see the same cartouche, preceded by the "Sedge & Bee"
[img]https://ibb.co/10W9x6b[/img]
Budge shows other Nomen without the "Sedge & Bee".
Is there any significance in this omission (a bit like depicting "HRH George II", as "George II")?
The 3 glyphs, just above, N5 (?) and 2 x X1(?). Are these an alternative honourific, or "just" part of the narrative?
TIA
Fof
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Fof
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:13 pm    Post subject: Got it right this time Reply with quote

I cannot edit the original, so here are the correct links:
Tuthmoses III cartouche

Budge listing

Sorry
Fof
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, stay away from Budge. There were two names that were depicted in a cartouche - the prenomen, which was the throne name. This is the one preceded by the 'sedge and bee' or nsw-bity (King of Upper and Lower Egypt). The nomen or birth name, is the one preceded by sA-ra (son of Re).
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Fof
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry. Dyslexic fingers. I should have said Prenomen.
The prenomen, as you say is preceded with the honourific, the 'sedge and bee' or nsw-bity. In this case, and apparently others, the honourific is absent. My question is, why?
Why do you say to stay away from Budge? As far as I have been able to determine, his "The Book of the Kings of Egypt" is still the #1 to go to, although a bit dated.
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Fof
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 5:19 pm    Post subject: Hmmmm!!! Reply with quote

Thinking a bit more, I began to doubt an assumption I had made. Idea
Looking closely at cartouches in other images I have, and on line, I realised that the use "of Sedge & Bee" was just one honourific that could appear there.
Durr. bandhead Brick wall
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fof wrote:
... the use "of Sedge & Bee" was just one honourific that could appear there. ...

It is mandatory when writing the "Five Big Names" in canonical form (since Middle Kingdom). In other texts it may be replaced by other terms such as "Lord of the Two Lands" or "The Good God", or may be omitted entirely.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jürgen von Beckerath : Handbuch der ägyptischen Königsnamen. - München : Deutscher Kunstverlag, 1984. - ISBN : 3422008322. - XXII, 314 p.

Ronald J. Leprohon : The Great Name - Ancient Egyptian Royal Titulary. - [Writings from the Ancient World 33]. - Atlanta : Society of Biblical Literature, 2013. - ISBN: 9781589837355. - 270 p.
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Fof
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Lutz
That cleaned up another bit of assumed knowledge.
One day I will learn to NEVER assume, as 99.9% of the time, I make the wrong assumption. Laughing
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