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Who was the Mother of Tut?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revez : The Role of the Kings' Brothers is also Online available.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we may have to consider that after a brother took the throne it was required for their brothers to step aside as potential heirs, unless there was some kind of later dynastic crisis.

It may explain the lack of parents mentioned in some courtiers tombs - or just a mother shown with what could be seen as minor royal wife titles. Promoting themselves as king’s son might be seen as a threat politically or in religious terms. We should probably be looking for senior courtiers whose parents are not named, or those for whom a mother is known that matches the name or titles of a royal wife.

Horemheb said that Tuthmosis III is his “grandfather” or “ancestor” which could actually be true.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:04 pm    Post subject: Other Royal offspring Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge Ancient Egypt did not have the practice of a new Pharaoh killing his (half-)brothers after succeeding so im sure that considering a Pharaoh had several wives and concubines that it is very likely other lines existed. I do find the explanation that King's brother was not a title used because of the mythological fight between Horus and Seth a logical one. So the other sons either simply remained King's son just not of the reigning Pharaoh or possibly lost that style but had other roles and positions that gave them a new style.

There had also been a theory that Thuya was a descendant of Queen Ahmose Nefertari the first queen of the 18th dynasty.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Other Royal offspring Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
... There had also been a theory that Thuya was a descendant of Queen Ahmose Nefertari the first queen of the 18th dynasty.

Detailed, also in Cyril Aldred : Akhenaten - King of Egypt. - London : T & H Ltd., 1988, pp. 134 ff.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
We also have to remember that Amenhotep III and Yuya also appear to be related, but we can't yet tell if that is through his father Tuthmosis IV or his mother Mutemweia.

Which leads back to the question of why in the names of the gods was Tuthmosis IV not tested, or was he, but for reasons unknown to us the barriers have come down.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuthmosis IV wasn’t DNA tested - why I have no idea - but like the mummy of the boy in KV35 he was CT scanned apparently.

They did test Ahmose-Nefertari, the two KV60 mummies (incl Hatchepsut) and the mummy called Tuthmosis I as part of the control group but didn’t publish the DNA.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:38 pm    Post subject: DNA testing Reply with quote

Not that im aware of. It would have been great if they had tested all the 18th dynasty mummies they have. We still don't know several of the family relations.

We know Kamose last Pharaoh of the 17th dynasty was either the father or brother of Ahmose I and that Amenhotep I was his son. If Thutmose I was his son, son-in-law or chosen successor we don't know. Neither do we know of his known wive Ahmose and Mutnofret how they were related to him and the two previous monarchs of the dynasty.

Also later generations might show some intermarriage within a limited group.

If several junior wives and concubines are tested we might also get an impression of how the Harem was filled. We know of foreign royal brides but were the Egyptian wives of the Pharaoh just picked for their beauty like in the Ottoman Harems or were they selected from certain families like the Chinese Harems were. It might be the case that a woman not only had to look good but also have a certain family background to make it to wife or concubine. Considering that we regularly see family ties to temple offices held either by the mother or father of a wife or concubine im leaning towards the second option but it would be nice to have more input on it. DNA testing could have given us more insight in that part of history and possibly even of the top layer of people in administrative, military and religious offices.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why I posted this "or was he, but for reasons unknown to us the barriers have come down." is because the Jama paper and Scanning the Pharaohs gives a list of all the mummies who were DNA tested, but the list does not include the KV35 boy, who by photographic evidence posted on this forum and elsewhere was tested in KV35 at the same time as Tiye and the YL. There are two photos of him on a table in what is clearly KV35, with Hawass, Ashraf Selim and a female technician standing over him dressed in surgical gowns and gloves. So if he was tested yet does not appear on the official record as being tested, there could be others, including Thutmosis IV, whose omission on the official records is so bizarre as to be perverse.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: young boy with Tiye and YL Reply with quote

Considering the two other mummies the young man was buried with are mother and daughter and we know Tiye and Amenhotep III had their oldest son and crownprince Thutmose die it could be him.
He could also be another relative possibly a younger son of Tiye and Amenhotep III. Leaving him out of testing was not ideal. Im not sure if it was money shortage, a desire for speed or something else to leave him out.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
The reason why I posted this "or was he, but for reasons unknown to us the barriers have come down." is because the Jama paper and Scanning the Pharaohs gives a list of all the mummies who were DNA tested, but the list does not include the KV35 boy, who by photographic evidence posted on this forum and elsewhere was tested in KV35 at the same time as Tiye and the YL. There are two photos of him on a table in what is clearly KV35, with Hawass, Ashraf Selim and a female technician standing over him dressed in surgical gowns and gloves. So if he was tested yet does not appear on the official record as being tested, there could be others, including Thutmosis IV, whose omission on the official records is so bizarre as to be perverse.


The boy was CT scanned - this was shown in stills and on TV - but not DNA tested as far as I am aware.

There was some gossip posted - here I believe - that he was DNA tested but there's no evidence of that. I can't believe that they went to the trouble of putting the mummy through the scanner not to have recorded something. Maybe a question to pose to Hawass directly at a speaking engagement or by email?
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
Ikon wrote:
The reason why I posted this "or was he, but for reasons unknown to us the barriers have come down." is because the Jama paper and Scanning the Pharaohs gives a list of all the mummies who were DNA tested, but the list does not include the KV35 boy, who by photographic evidence posted on this forum and elsewhere was tested in KV35 at the same time as Tiye and the YL. There are two photos of him on a table in what is clearly KV35, with Hawass, Ashraf Selim and a female technician standing over him dressed in surgical gowns and gloves. So if he was tested yet does not appear on the official record as being tested, there could be others, including Thutmosis IV, whose omission on the official records is so bizarre as to be perverse.


The boy was CT scanned - this was shown in stills and on TV - but not DNA tested as far as I am aware.

There was some gossip posted - here I believe - that he was DNA tested but there's no evidence of that. I can't believe that they went to the trouble of putting the mummy through the scanner not to have recorded something. Maybe a question to pose to Hawass directly at a speaking engagement or by email?

Yes, he was scanned during the making of Fletcher's documentary on Nefertiti back in 2002/3, though not a single mention in Scanning the Pharaohs. It's because of the lack of any recognition in any publication or documentary, it isn't mentioned who the mummy is we see pushed under the scanner, that indicates that while SCA include him in testing, they will not publish any results. In the Discovery Channel documentary "King Tut Unwrapped", which deals with the DNA testing of Tutankhamun and related mummies, we see Tiye and the YL on a table in KV35 having samples taken. The boy is not mentioned or shown once in the documentary, yet we have these photos of him on the same table in KV35 with Hawass, Ashraf and the technician. Yet no mention of this is any published article about the DNA testing, which means that the vast majority of people have no idea that he was tested, and so do not question why his results have not been published. I fired off an email to Hawass about this, but no reply as I doubt the mail got past his "doorkeepers".
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t see why they wouldn’t publish something, it doesn’t really matter if he turns out not to be part of the family, at least that would stop some speculation.

Mind you odds are he’s a close relative - if a son of Amenhotep II he’s an uncle to Amenhotep III, although I know a lot of people would prefer he be Prince Tuthmose.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, if it turned out he was a son of Amunhotep II, and many do still think he is Webensenu, then he can be removed from the Amarna equation, but Amunhotep II wasn't tested so that's left hanging. Personally I don't see him as Webensenu and that he is part of the Amarna crowd. If he were a son of Tiye and AIII then he will instantly be declared to be the missing prince Thutmose, and that will put a stop to wacky ideas that he was a biblical character, but, this mummy is too young, IMO. Now if he were found to be a son of the YL, that would be a talking point, I think....
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject: KV35 young boy Reply with quote

He might very well be part of the Amarna family. To me that would be logical considering who he was found with. If he is a son of Amenhotep III and Tiye that does not mean he is crown prince Thutmose, he could also be another son they had who died young. If he turns out to be a son of KV55 and KV35YL he could be a full brother of Tut either younger or older. If he was older he might have been the elusive Smenkhkare. The youth of both boys may have been the reason why Neferneferuaten as co-regent of Achenaten was able to continue her reign in spite of him leaving two sons. How pleased Meritaten would have been to be married to a child half her age is another matter.
He seems to have been around 11 years old when he died. If that was a couple of years after Achenaten died Meritaten would have been around 20 but at least 18 and possibly older if she was born before her father became Pharaoh.
It looks like her sister Anchesenpaaten/Anchesenamun also married a much younger boy. She was in her mid to late teens by the time she married a 9 year old.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:54 pm    Post subject: kv21a, kv21b, kv55 and Tut and his daughters Reply with quote

i've been checking the JAMA papers for the DNA results again and tried a few options.

Tut has to be a grandson of Amenhotep III and Tiye with KV55 and KV35YL being a perfect DNA match to be his parents.

The two foetuses in his tomb from the known DNA could be his with KV21A. KV21A had two clubfeet so may not have been walking easily or well.
KV21A cannot be the daughter of KV21B so that ends the theory of KV21B being Nefertiti. They could be sisters and kv55 could be their father but in that case kv21A cannot be the mother of Tut's daughters. The ladies in KV21 are clearly part of the dynasty and so was their mother. She however also had a fresh line.
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