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Who was the Mother of Tut?
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:22 am    Post subject: prince Amenhat Reply with quote

It's unknown if prince Amenhat was the son of Thutmoses III with Satiah or Neferure. In the latter case we have another crown prince from a brother-sister marriage.
Tiaa's parentage is unknown so we have no information her mother-in-law may have been a relative as well but again too little information about her background is known.

Outside of the brother-sister marriages there seems to have been a special status for women descending from Ahmose-Nefertari who was deified. Through her mother Thuya queen Tiye was probably one of them and it's likely Nefertiti was related to Tiye and Thuya so she would have been another devine descendant.

The lack of information about other members of a Pharaoh's family makes it difficult to see everything that happened. We know that marriages between siblings or half siblings were not uncommon but they were not required either. The Heiress-theory seems to be wrong or work different from how it was explained before.

What we do see is that at the beginning and the end of the dynasty the role of women was more important than during the solo reign of Thutmosis III and his immediate successors. As they came after a queen who took to the throne as a Pharaoh that is not entirely surprising. For ancient Egyptian standards Hatchepsut stepped outside the accepted role of royal women and it seems her stepson tried to prevent any of his successors having to deal with a similar situation. He did so closer to the end of his reign but by brutal force destroying evidence of his stepmother's reign.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, and itís notable that Amenhotep III avoided promoting any single woman above another. I would speculate that he was an influence on his father towards the end of his life. If Nefeure did have a child of either gender with Tuthmose III he or she would be a threat to Amenhotep II. By taking out a damnatio memorae on Hatchepsut this would also impact on any descendants of hers. Amenhotep III was reportedly a young adult when he ascended to the throne so will not have known Hatchepsut at all, and by that time all of her supporters would also have been dead.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I my first sentence I wrote Amenhotep III, I mean of course Amenhotep II
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:01 pm    Post subject: prince Amenhat Reply with quote

Thutmoses III had a crown prince Amenhat either by his half sister Neferure or by the Great Royal Wife Satiah but this son died before his father.
Had he lived he would most likely have been the heir.

What is remarkable during the 18th dynasty is that several Pharaohs in spite of having multiple wives were not succeeded by a son from their principal consort who was also (one of) the GRW.

Ramses II had a very long reign but in the end was succeeded by a son from one of his first two GRWs.

Amenhotep I was not succeeded by a son of his GRW, neither were Thutmoses I, II and III. Amenhotep II seems to have been the son of a GRW but one of the end of his father's reign. Thutmoses IV and Amenhotep III both were again more likely offspring of a lesser consort as was Tut and possibly Smenkhkare if you see him as Tut's brother.
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maat
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:

...though several kings married sisters they rarely had children, and in the 18th dynasty this was mainly at the start when they were establishing themselves and had lost princes to war.

Your statement that they "had lost princes to war" caught my eye.
Can you note one or two specific examples for reference?

A few years ago, I came across two obscure references that your references might help me begin to understand.

The first indicated an elder male lying on ground in a desert scape with his left arm on the body of a smaller apparently deceased figure. Separately, a lioness also in a desert has its right paw on a very long snake.

The next reference was in a different location than where I found the first.
It indicates that Akhenaten lost two sons while Amenhotep III was still alive apparently before Tutankhamun. A very muscular Amenhotep III grieved while his son (both still in combat armor) cradled the body of a male teen on his lap. The dead (boy?) was not in armor and a younger boy apparently died later.

Anyway, I don't have any references about the boys and have long needed to understand what it means. Since the two men wore armor, the elder boy might have died in combat.
So, princes that died in war might help me begin to gain some insight.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahmose-Sapair was an adult prince of the late 17th/early 18th dynasty and a candidate for the father of Tuthmose I. He was probably the son of Ahmose I. There was a mummy of a 5 or 6 year old boy of the same name in the DB320 cache, but it is unlikely to have been the same person. The older prince was remembered well into the 18th dynasty and his tomb was reported as intact in the 20th dynasty (it has not been found).

Ahmose-Ankh - a son of Ahmose I who was crown prince but died before his father who left the throne to his younger brother Amenhotep I

Ramose - father not established - recorded in the 20th dynasty as one of the "Lords Of The West" alongside several kings and other princes from the 17th and early 18th dynasty (including also Ahmose-Sapair). Tomb of Interhaui TT359. Interestingly in that tomb Ramose is shown holding a lotus-flower wheras Ahmose-Sapair is shown with the crook and flail. Neither have their names in cartouches unlike most of the other figures in the scene. Both have princely sidelocks over short wigs - the style of the time for adult princes.
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