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Why Names of Akhenaten's Children ?
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maat
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:16 pm    Post subject: Why Names of Akhenaten's Children ? Reply with quote

Food for thought.

In order of birth, Akhenaten's daugihters with Nefertiti were named

1. Meritaten
2. Meketaten
3. Ankhesenpaaten
4. Neferneferuaten Tasherit
5. Neferneferure
6. Setepenre

I don't know if the following has been already considered but it seems like an obvious question to ask.

Why were the last two daughters given names that honor 'Re' (also 'Ra') while Akhenaten was the professed manifestation of the Aten?

The first four daughters have the Aten designation in their names but not his last two daughters.

It could have been argued that Akhenaten sired one and died before she was born and named, but he was certainly still alive well after Neferneferure had been named.

He in fact (according to the known history) fathered Setepenre.

He also fathered Tutankhaten (who later became Tutankhamun).

Why stop or interrupt assigning 'aten' then name the boy 'aten'?

The popularly accepted theory of today is that Tutankhamun changed from the 'aten' name as part of his turn (and return of Egypt) from Atenism.

That could explain why Tutankhamun changed his name from 'aten' but Akhenaten would have been vigorously alive and fully aware that the apparent convention of designating his children for the Aten was broken by the name of Neferneferure.

Had Akhenaten given up Atenism (long before Tutankhamun) or was something else going on?

That sudden break in names seems to glare brighter than the Aten.

What is it and what does it mean (if anything)?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good questions, for which nobody has come up with an answer, only guesses.

Ra was almost identical to the Aten, and had before Akhenaten been at times represented as looking exactly like Ra, and without a "nametag" it being impossible to tell them apart. Akhenaten never changed his throne name, Wa-en-ra, so Ra could never have been a problem for him, unlike Ra-Horakhty, who he referenced for a while, then stopped, probably because this is not pure Ra, but diluted with the son of the banned Isis and Osiris. Therefore being named after Ra is not an issue with his last two daughters, a bit odd considering everybody elase was an "aten", but still within "Atenism"

And before you ask, the "Set" part of Setepenre is nothing to do with the god Set, which really would have been an anathema to Akhenaten. The name means "Chosen of Ra".

The two "Ra" daughters were born before the year 12 durbar, so I think it safe to assume that they were born at a time before any sort of decline set in, which looks possible from year 12 onwards, or at least from the deaths of three of his daughters, which might make anybody have some mental health issues even in an age of high mortality.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Because Akhenaten's beef was with Amun, not Re.
2. Please show proof that Akhenaten was Tutankhamun's father
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon and Irt-akhu,

Yes, Ra and the Aten were both manifestations of the sun but I think, at first, Akhenaten was fixated on the Aten more because that was a part of his new persona as Shu. The earlier Aten cartouches tell the story. The first one says "Ra-Horakhty rejoices in the horizon" and the second one continues "in his name of Shu, which is in the Aten".

I believe that these two Aten cartouches were only pertinent while a coregency existed between Akhenaten and his father--with Amenhotep III representing Ra-Horakhty and Akhenaten being his inseparable counterpart, Shu. As the Aten represented the noonday sun when its light was the strongest, this was Shu, the light god, at his most potent.

Once Amenhotep III had died and the "holy trinity" of Ra, Shu and Tefnut became no longer pertinent to the situation of the royals, the second set of Aten cartouches say this: "Living sun, ruler of the two horizons, rejoicing in the horizon" and the second "in his name of 'Coming of the Aten'",

According to the Year 12 representations, all of the daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti were born by then. Maybe the best Aten names had already been taken so names with Ra were used for a change--but there was really no radical change.

As for Akhenaten being Tutankhamun's father, there is no absolute proof of it anywhere. All one can say is that Tut was the son of a king, as stated on the Hermopolis block--and there are only two possible candidates, Akhenaten and Smenkhkare. And that is only because no one knows for sure what relationship Smenkhkare had to Akhenaten. But, as the DNA mandates that the KV55 individual is the father and there was nothing in KV55 mentioning Smenkhkare--Akhenaten is the outstanding candidate.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pure speculation, but I wonder if the use of -aten names stopped at a certain point around year 8 and this may point to the year that Tutankhaten was born?

Baketaten was also depicted alive and probably born around the same time as Meritaten or Meketaten (year 1 or 2 / end of Amenhotep III's reign).

So, what if Tut was born between Neferneferuaten-tasherit and Nefeure? I.e. maybe year 10? This would put him around 7 years old at Akhenaten's death, 2 years before he was probably crowned. This could still in theory fit with a 2 and a bit year reign of Neferneferuaten.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
Good questions, for which nobody has come up with an answer, only guesses.


You note: "Ra was almost identical to the Aten, and had before Akhenaten been at times represented as looking exactly like Ra, and without a 'nametag' it being impossible to tell them apart."

I didn't know.

I considered that 'Akhenaten never changed his throne name, Wa-en-ra,' and still (even as you note) it's very 'odd' to me that the sequence of names with 'aten' would be interrupted while Akhenaten was still alive.

So, I started looking into the 'aten' names and found something really interesting that I will post at a later date (after I've fleshed it out more).

There's a signature pattern that occurs with the names and it pertains to the deities of the ennead and extends into the Ramesside period (where I rarely ever go).


I'm aware that 'the 'Set' part of Setepenre (that means 'Chosen of Ra') has nothing known to do with the god Set' and still pursued the 'Seth' reference for two reasons.

'A lid of a small box (JdE 61498) bearing her picture (of Neferneferure) was found among the treasures of Tutankhamun. It shows the princess crouching, with a finger pressed to her mouth, as very young children were often depicted. On the lid Re's name in her name was written phonetically instead of with the usual circled dot.'
[ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neferneferure ]

The name of Neferneferure was found phonetically and I thought that the name of might be included as a play of text to include the name within Setepenre.

It worked fit really perfectly where I had not expected anything.

Thanks for the year 12 reference.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
1. Because Akhenaten's beef was with Amun, not Re.


I seriously disagree with the popularly held position that Akhenaten had 'a beef' with Amun (or any other deity).

I am aware of the Restoration stela of Tutankhamun, read Reeves, Silverman and Wegner, and some others.

I don't accept that Akhenaten tried to erase Amun from monuments and the life of Egypt.

Ancient Egypt can seem bizarre such that to hide 'the hidden one' can in actuality have been a way to more perfectly represent Amun.

Akhenaten did not impose the Aten for his personal religious or spiritual belief as most scholars believe.

I will only note for now that some information remains to be known.

Quote:
2. Please show proof that Akhenaten was Tutankhamun's father


I had to think for a moment about how to respond to your request for proof because I found that proof is not simple as an inscription that attests Akhenaten is the father of Tutankhamun.

I don't know why it seems that a simple declaration was not noted somewhere but the 'proof' that I think you seek is more complexly structured than I know how to present simply.

One element of proof that Akhenaten is the father of Tutankhamun is within KV62 where maternal and paternal lineages of his parents are symbolized in constructed references.

I explained in the topic (Miscellaneous > controversial Considerations) that the nested burial shrines and coffins of Tutankhamun represent the kingship and maternal lineages that produced Tutankhamun.

It is not an inscription but more like a demonstration.

- The outer coffin represents Tiye.
- The middle inner coffin represents Nefertiti (daughter of Tiye).
- The innermost coffin of gold represents Meritaten (daughter of Nefertiti and Amenhotep III).
- Meritaten is the mother of Tutankhamun.

The king who is his father can be inferred from the reference of coffins because there are no maternal queens without their kings.

Amenhotep III and Akhenaten in a preceding reference in the tomb are represented by the jackal on the Anubis shrine that watches protectively over the writing palette of Meritaten.
She is the writing palette.

BOD chapter 17 informs they can take any form they want.

Kings and their queens are well-known as found attested elsewhere by inscriptions and images.

- Tiye was queen of Amenhotep III and mother of Akhenaten.
- Nefertiti was queen and GRW of Akhenaten.
- Meritaten was also GRW of Akhenaten.

The mummy in the gold coffin effectively represents (suggests) Tutankhamun in his mother.
It is an unfit place for the mummy of the real king to be found because the king is not a dependent child in the womb of his mother.

Proof is in a series of constructed references that incrementally build knowledge towards certainty about the family structure and relationships in it.

It does not seem to be explicitly written in the tomb that Akhenaten fathered Tutankhamun.

Maybe explicitly written declarations are with Tutankhamun's real mummy or obscurely noted elsewhere to be found.

For now, the lineage references seem to be nearest to an explicit testament that declares his parentage that I know.

It seems strange to me that his parentage was not more prominently expressed (unless it is with the real king's mummy).

If such a declaration is with his mummy, then I would also expect there should also be his full biography in plain wording.

Can I show proof that Akhenaten is his father?
Yes, but it is a long process (as I understand it) that requires you to learn to read the references that the ancient Egyptians constructed.

That requires some mental gymnastics (to think similarly as they did).

An example of such thinking: What is (1/1) ?

Mathematicians would say (1/1) is equal to integer 1 such that (1/1) + (1/2) = (1 1/2) = (3/2).

But, (1/1) is also Not equal to one, else [(1/1) + (1/2) = (1/3)] could not be true.

So, what is that 'fractional one' (1/1) that can make (1/3) and what does it mean?

Well, that fractional one in ancient Egypt is Osiris - the one in the underworld or other world.

Osiris rules the underworld is about more than death.

He was cut into pieces (made into a fraction) by Seth.

Osiris is fractional one that has an inconceivable value in the real world but is effectively applicable as a valid fractional term.

What does it mean?
You have to learn to think as they did to understand their references.

Another example:
- (3/3) equals one whole.
- Also, (3/3) does Not equal one.

Both are true.

(1/3) apple, (1/3) moon, and (1/3) kilo are three third-parts (3/3) that do not equal to one whole.

The mythical 'Hall of Two Truths' had (and has) applicable relevance in reality.

Those who use one-truth thinking in efforts to understand an ancient civilization that created two-truth references will get half-true results.

The proofs for ancient Egypt can be more complex to understand than might be expected.

Such things are why I had to think about how to answer.

The good of it all is that there are really amazing ancient Egyptian truths that await discovery.

Among such truths are that the ancient Egyptian gods are eternal, the pharaohs are gods, and they are based in science.

To learn what this means is fundamentally to know what the gods are and their origins.

The ancient Egyptian gods actually have a rational and reasonable origin.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaintGermain wrote:
Ikon and Irt-akhu,

Yes, Ra and the Aten were both manifestations of the sun but I think, at first, Akhenaten was fixated on the Aten more because that was a part of his new persona as Shu. The earlier Aten cartouches tell the story. The first one says "Ra-Horakhty rejoices in the horizon" and the second one continues "in his name of Shu, which is in the Aten".

I believe that these two Aten cartouches were only pertinent while a coregency existed between Akhenaten and his father--with Amenhotep III representing Ra-Horakhty and Akhenaten being his inseparable counterpart, Shu. As the Aten represented the noonday sun when its light was the strongest, this was Shu, the light god, at his most potent.

Once Amenhotep III had died and the "holy trinity" of Ra, Shu and Tefnut became no longer pertinent to the situation of the royals, the second set of Aten cartouches say this: "Living sun, ruler of the two horizons, rejoicing in the horizon" and the second "in his name of 'Coming of the Aten'",

According to the Year 12 representations, all of the daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti were born by then. Maybe the best Aten names had already been taken so names with Ra were used for a change--but there was really no radical change.

As for Akhenaten being Tutankhamun's father, there is no absolute proof of it anywhere. All one can say is that Tut was the son of a king, as stated on the Hermopolis block--and there are only two possible candidates, Akhenaten and Smenkhkare. And that is only because no one knows for sure what relationship Smenkhkare had to Akhenaten. But, as the DNA mandates that the KV55 individual is the father and there was nothing in KV55 mentioning Smenkhkare--Akhenaten is the outstanding candidate.

Yes, I should have given that more thought, and don't know why I didn't as I recently wrote in another place about AIII declaring himself to be Ra-Horakhty, among other gods, so it makes sense that there would be a change when he died. I think I was looking at the "real" Ra-Horakhty and not associating him with a bad toothed fat guy with a god complex.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notes in my Origin Of The Egyptian Gods (pdf)
will be needed for my later explanation about the 'aten' names that involve Akhenaten's children.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also always wondered why the younger girls ended up with Ra names, but never really thought it to be too out of place. Ra was the original sun god and never seemed to be officially excluded the way others were during the Atenist period. As for why the sudden change in the naming trend, since nothing has been learned for certain, I always just assumed it might have had something to do with Akhenaten aging.

Maybe as he was getting older he was beginning to worry a little as to what would await him in the next world. Atenism wasn't embraced nearly as much as he had originally hoped. Many things seemed to go very badly and quickly as the years passed. Maybe he began to have a little bit of doubt that the Aten would provide for him in the afterlife, and as a result of this gave the younger girls Ra names in an attempt to pay some direct homage and win some favor with this god.
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"You made heaven far away just to rise in it, to see all you make, Being unique and risen in your aspects of being as 'living Aten' manifest, shining, far yet near".
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't it early Dyn 18 that Amun became joined with Re as Amun-Re? Seeing as how Akhenaten chiseled away Amun more than any other god, I too am wondering how Re figures into this.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akhenaten's version of Re was the sun disc itself - the visual manifestation of Re.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Notes in my Origin Of The Egyptian Gods (pdf)
will be needed for my later explanation about the 'aten' names that involve Akhenaten's children.

The pdf in the quoted section above shows relationship of the Ennead and Ogdoad of ancient Egypt through a common key 'Ennead Reference'.

That Akhenaten gave his last two daughters names that include Ra (Re)is not necessarily radical.

It just seems capricious because every other aspect of his kingship is Aten (effectively his patron god as regarded from our modern perspective today).

That his last two daughters are named to honor Ra stands out starkly, seems awkward and misplaced in a virtual sea of 'Aten.

It seems as dramatic to me as if The Pope today were to appeal to Allah for example. It is a noticeable act in the public sphere.

So, why did Akhenaten name his two daughters for Ra and not Aten? To attract scrutiny in later periods after his time.

Make a thing awkward enough and people will be attracted to scrutinize it for significance.

The Aten-related names are involved within an informative constructed reference that must be studied to be understood.

The names with 're' in land of the Aten draws the desired attention such that today I can say, consider the notes in the following pdf.

The linked pdf (below) explains how the Aten-related names of the royal family of the pharaoh Akhenaten are involved as reference elements within an informative reference that ultimately extended from the Amarna period's 18th dynasty into the 19th dynasty.

The Ennead Reference as a key bridges across and through dynasties since as early as the time of Khufu in dynasty 4.

Akhenaten was not a heretical monotheist who sought to displace the ancient Egyptian pantheon.

The constructed reference of names indicates that his efforts were to preserve and extend references for that pantheon long beyond his time.

Of course, my short pdf note only touches on to expose a matter that is far more extensive.


Aten-Related Names An Ennead Reference (PDF)
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
Wasn't it early Dyn 18 that Amun became joined with Re as Amun-Re? Seeing as how Akhenaten chiseled away Amun more than any other god, I too am wondering how Re figures into this.

12th Dynasty under Senusret I

The perceived issue with Amun may simply be due to him not originally being a part of the concoction that made up the Sungod, therefore was not "pure", and in Akhenaten's philosophy of worshipping sunlight, how can there be a place for something that is "hidden". I think that we are perhaps unintentionaly swayed by the use of "Amun" in so much of the literature dealing with Amarna, when the name used should be Amun-Ra. I've done a short survey of instances of Amun and Amun-Ra in the indexes of a selection of some of my books. Amun-Ra does appear, but if Amun is also used in the index, then Amun is far more prevalent. Where an index only uses Amun-Ra, such as in Aldred's book, he for the most part uses just Amun in the text, as does Ridley for a more up to date book.

This gives the impression of there being this one god Amun, who Akhenaten saw as the "enemy", along with it's priesthood. There is zero evidence for any conflict with the Amun priesthood, whose Chief Prophet was appointed by whoever was king, and the king was the only executive priest in all of Egypt anyway, all others, no matter their rank, being stand-ins for the king and acting on his behalf, not theirs.

If Senusret I had not created Amun-Ra, then I doubt there would have been any more action taken against just Amun than against any other god. All I see Akhenaten doing is removing the association of Ra- light, with Amun - shadow, which is an easy task as there never was one god called Amun-Ra, just an association of two separate gods, which to a large extent in modern times we in error see as being one indivisible god.

So, Ra cannot ever have been an issue for Akhenaten, either as god or element of a persons name. Wa-en-ra
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Correction:

I made a gross error in the 'Aten-Related Names An Ennead Reference (PDF)'.

I noted The Aten and Shu as the first two male deities that begin the Ennead where I had intended to note Nun and Ra.

I also mangled that explanatory paragraph (although. the table of names could make my intent clear).

So, I link in this post to a the edited PDF (below) that marks the error and includes corrected text.

Aten-Related Names In An Ennead Reference (PDF)

The old link will become inactive.
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