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Ancient Civilization in the Sahara
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meresankh wrote:
Sorry to disappoint you but, no, linguists aren't being lazy when they assign Egyptian-Coptic to Afroasiatic Exclamation Linguists just don't work like that. Things like this are done for very precise reasons, such as consistent patterns of sound correspondences, consistent grammatical similarities and so on. The fact that Egyptian-Coptic is a branch by itself just means that they can't find enough correspondences with the other branches to establish that Egyptian-Coptic and (for example, say) Berber-Tuareg derived from a common ancestor, which itself would have been intermediary between Afroasiatic and the later languages. There's nothing very unusual in this. Greek and Albanian for instance, are both independent branches of Indo-European.

I was still kind of hoping there would be any other language, felt to be closely related to Egyptian, besides Coptic then.
It doesn't mean never having heard about it, not having it exist, no? Smile
Idle hope I guess.
I was just kidding when I asked if it was out of laziness by the way.
I'd never underestimate a linguist's work.

Meresankh wrote:
Sorry, this must be a rather long and boring post, but I thought the issues you raised needed in depth explanation. But it probably still doesn't make much sense. Tell you what, if you're interested in such things, why not see if you can get a book on historical linguistics, and take it from there? Smile

It was quite helpful actually, not boring and you gave an answer to most of the things I was wondering about.
Any tips regarding books about the overall Afro-Asiatic languages?
All I have are about the Egyptian language in particular and they don't really give much detail about its relation with other (living) languages except Coptic.
So I'm quite a trade-idiot on that front (if that's even a correct English term). Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meresankh wrote:

Sorry, this must be a rather long and boring post, but I thought the issues you raised needed in depth explanation. But it probably still doesn't make much sense. Tell you what, if you're interested in such things, why not see if you can get a book on historical linguistics, and take it from there? Smile


Very Happy No. I don't know much about linguistics but have always found it fascinating.
So please don't censor yourself nike

Sorry I can't contribute more. Am rather busy right now. homework
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Meresankh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:

Any tips regarding books about the overall Afro-Asiatic languages?


Most books on issues in Afroasiatic linguistics would only be available in University libraries, I should imagine, and would not be understandable to anyone who wasn't a specialist in the field anyway. You could look at: Ancient Egyptian: A Linguistic Introduction by A. Loprieno (1995) Cambridge University Press, which has a Chapter on the relationship of Egyptian with the other languages of the family. But again, this book is aimed at professional linguists, so needs to be approached with caution!

Actually, I think the best place to start would be with a book on Historical Linguistics, e.g: Historical Linguistics: An Introduction, by Lyle Campbell (2004) Edinburgh University Press. With that kind of background knowledge, you could then look at more specialised works on Afroasiatic, if they are available to you. But I doubt if you'd find them in the average bookshop. You'd need access to a university library.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but the best place to start is at the beginning, so why not see ho w it goes Smile
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Meresankh
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are a couple of websites about the Sahara that people might find interesting.

www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~e118/wsahara.htm

www.fulcrumtv.com/blackmummy.htm

Sorry, I really can't find much about Afroasiatic languages, whether books or websites that would be accesible to the non-specialist. But the following website might interest some people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic

It's got links to all the subgroups, including Egyptian.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at the first link (great site btw).
In the link about the funerary monuments they talk about the monuments dating back to the 4th, 5th and even 7th millenium BP.

What does BP mean? I have seen BC and BCE, but never BP.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just found the answer. BP means "before present".
So the 4000, 5000 BP would put the finds around 2000, 3000 BC.

3000 BC is roughly the start of the first dynasty (Narmer-Menes)

I couldn't figure out exactly how old some of the monument were.

Interesting (I think) are:


Stelae field north of Tifariti, comprised of some 65 standing stones.
This site seems to be associated with some tombs. I wonder if it could be some temple?

Also interesting is:

Large (approximately some 5 m in height) stone monument in north of study area, in vicinity of Wadi Tirnit.

I wonder if the spiral structure was there to allow people to walk up the structure?
The authors say about this monument:
Quote:
Indications of contact with northern African areas are well exemplified by Site SP1, a particular stone monument northeast of Wadi Ternit


The first pyramids show up in egypt in ca 2620 BC (4620 BP). Makes me wonder which one came first. Smile
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa...so this means that the first pyramids are not from Egypt, but from somewhere near Morocco? (Is that where the photos were taken?)

I get the feeling that implies that the Egyptians came from the west? I always thought (thanks to discussions on this board etc) that the prehistoric Egyptian ancestors came from a variety of places, west, south and east mainly as well as within Egypt.
(I'm not very good at prehistoric stuff or linguistics so forgive the 'air of stupidity' I appear to present here lol Laughing )
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know.
I couldn't tell how old this spiral structure was. It may or may not date to the same time period as the pyramids. I also don't know if it's a funerary monument. It never says that someone was buried in there.

It seems that the finds in North-Western Africa are rather old and raise more questions than they answer.

From the website, it sounds as thought the political upheaval in the area also makes excavations very hard. It also shows how tourism is destroying some of the rock art. I hope they get a chance to record enough of it to shed some light on the history of that general area.

I still think that the egyptian civilization was influenced by many different groups. Over 3000 years of history would be hard to imagine without many different influences.

The mention of the black mummy in Libya is also interesting. It dates back to before the time of the pharaohs and indicates that mummification was practiced a long long time ago.
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Meresankh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There has been some speculation that the idea for the pyramids came from naturally occurring structures in the Western desert. It's also probably true that influences on the Egyptians did come from all over. I expect the Saharan culture was only one influence.
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Charly
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparantly this culture in Morocco is linked with that of the Guanches (Canarian Islands); who also built pyramidal structures. Since there hasn't been much research done, the exact age of this culture hasn't been determind yet IIRC.
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rainbow
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a link with a few pics:
http://www.***.edu/image_archive/ta/tad.html
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