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Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:23 pm    Post subject: Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten Reply with quote

Vizier of Lower Egypt. Aperel, also called Aperia was buried with his wife Taweret and son Huy, a General, in Saqqara. Also mentioned in the tomb are Aperel’s sons Seny and Hatiay. Aperel was a child of the kap (royal nursery) and became vizier under Amenhotep III.

I was just reading a book by Zivie, and he mentions that Taweret was buried in a set of 3 coffins. This is apparently quite unusual. Tuya, the mother of Queen Tiye, for instance was apparently only buried with 2 coffins?

He also mentions that Aperel held several of the same titles as Yuya and Aye. Including titles of general of the chariotry and God's Father.

The titles are often given as a reason to suppose a family relationship between Yuya and Aye. If that reasoning is correct, then possibly Aperel is related to Yuya and Aye as well????

I personally found the God's Father title rather interesting. It is seen by some as an indication that the person may be the father-in-law of the King.
Good question may be then if this theory should just be tossed because there seem to be so many God's Fathers, or if Aperel is also the father of a King's wife (or concubine).
Good question would be who he could even be the father of? Kiya?
I'm not sure about this theory to begin with, but it does raise interesting questions.

I also found it intriguing that Aperel had a son called Hatiay. The name is not that uncommon, but there has been speculation that Maia, Tut's wetnurse, may have been the same person as the wife of a high ranking official named Hatiay.

Laughing but that may be a connecting of too many dots......
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to translate some parts of the text. My French is crappy, but I think I get the gist of it.

Quote:
One fact should be underlined: Taweret had three sarcophagi (which were works of art). This one is exceptional. We do not know of any other ladies of the New Kingdom who were awarded this type of the privilege .

Without showing too much snobbery, let us recall for example that the lady Tuya, the wife of general of the chariotry and divine father Yuya, whose funerary equipment was discovered intact in the Valley of the Kings in 1905, had only two coffins (and her husband three). They were however the parents of the future queen Tiye, who was married to Amenhotep III. This says it all. But the husband of Taweret, Aper-El, who was without a doubt also general of the chariotry, royal ambassodor, and divine father like Yuya, was also Vizier! Furthermore it is not impossible that Aye and Aper-El were related. An examination of their DNA and a comparison may give us more information. But sadly, for diverse reasons which largely escape us, such an examination will undoubtedly have to wait.


Quote:
One could thus think that this object rather was a part of the funerary equipment of General Huy, the son of Aper-El who we know to have possibly died in year 10 of Akhenaton, or even after, thanks to "labels" of earthenware wine jars.


Quote:
It remains a fact that Taweret "L" manages to miraculously be at once massive and elegantly beautiful. Let us forget the different gildings and disappeared paintings, but concentrate instead on the face with the damaged nose, but with the almost ironic eyes, the subtle smile and this certain leanness at the bottom of the cheeks, just before the chin. Should we point out that all this is not without relationship with certain representations in the round of queen Nefertiti? There is nothing astonishing about this when one recalls that Taweret was her contemporary and that she would have had a place in the entourage of this queen, her model obliges (translate: her image conforms?).


Note that the 3 sarcophagi were labeled "L", "M" and "S". Yes just like clothing: small, medium and large Very Happy
So the last quote is referring to the outer coffin and this largest of the three.

I just thought the comments were interesting, and I would give you some idea of what Zivie had to say....
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reign Amenhotep III
I saw in Bonn the coffin of Tuya and she was extreme beautiful. In my book Amenhotep III Perspectives on His reign by O'Conner and Cline, on pg 119 -120 I found this.
Undoubtedly made in the same royal workshop as the coffin of Tuya,they speak of the coffin of Henut-wedjebu one of the few surviving examples of the richly decorated anthropoid coffins produced during the reign of Amenhotep III. It was discovered in 1896 by Daressy Georges in a small, undecorated tomb at the foot of Sheikh Abd el-Qurna Hill, belonging to the "scribe and granary overseer of the Mansion of the Aten" Hatiay.
The tomb really no more than a cave sealed off by a mud-brick wall contained four coffins. The two largest and the most sumptuous coffins belonged to the tomb owner Hatiay and the 'singer of Amen and lady of the house", Henut-wedjebu, who was perhaps his wife. The other two described by the excavator as "less rich" belonged to the lady Siamen and Huy. Besides their occupants, all four coffins contained wonderful jewelry and decorative arts. The coffin and its inscriptions had never been fully published until (1992) by Kozloff and Bryan.
In the book they mentions also the coffins of the Vizier Aper-El and his family because they are just as splendid as the other coffins I mentioned.
What do you think of the title of the men, "scribe and overseer of the mansion of the Aten ?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that the coffin of Henut-Wedjebu is in the museum here in St Louis. I have seen it before and it is really beautiful. I will have to go and look at it again Very Happy

The title of Overseer (of the granary) of the house of Aten just means that the man was a high ranking administrative official associated to the temple. These temple complexes seem pretty large and they required quite a few administrators.
I get the impression that the Overseer of the temple (sometimes called Steward) was the one who oversaw everything. Then there were seperate overseers of the granary, storerooms, treasury, etc.

It seems that we may have as many as 3 Hatiays?
1. Son of Aperel
2. Man buried in Qurna
3. Man also called Raiay

Numbers 2 and 3 had different wives and different titles as well I think.
Number 2 may or may not have been married to the wet-nurse Maia.

I wonder if the son of Aperel can be identified with either or is yet another individual?
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke , I think that your are right about the location of the coffin, in the book they speak of the St. Louis Art Museum . In 1990 Cleveland conservators B. Christman and C. Warner treated the coffin on site before moving it to Cleveland for further conservation and study(mummy remains in St. Louis)
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found in a National Geographic of November 2003 an article about the (Memphis) Hatiay discoverd by Alain Zivie.
On one of the pictures Hatiay is sitting on a chair, his wife sits behind him ,she is much smaller depicted than her husband. The collors of Hatiay broadcollar are very well presered, they are very light blue and pastel green. The woman wears a very heavy wig , they have both a youthfull face. They say that neither of them is ever buried there.
I found a site of the National Geographic where you can see some pictures of the tomb of Hatiay

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0311/feature3

Information about the Qurna Hatiay, I found in Texts from the Amarna Period in Egypt from William J. Murnane on pg 67, 68 .
Here they placed him under the reign of Amenhotep IV .
They mention his coffin texts and also his staff that was insccribed for the "scribe of the double granary Hatiay - may he live again ! - the possessor of reverence, (belonging to) the House of the Aten in Memphis.
In his coffin texts is mentioning of Osiris, so he must have died before Akhenaten attacked the cult of Osiris.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rozette wrote:
Quote:
Information about the Qurna Hatiay, I found in Texts from the Amarna Period in Egypt from William J. Murnane on pg 67, 68 .
Here they placed him under the reign of Amenhotep IV .
They mention his coffin texts and also his staff that was insccribed for the "scribe of the double granary Hatiay - may he live again ! - the possessor of reverence, (belonging to) the House of the Aten in Memphis.
In his coffin texts is mentioning of Osiris, so he must have died before Akhenaten attacked the cult of Osiris.

Sorry to be a nuisense but I wonder if I could just double check something?
I haven't got anything on the Qurna Hatiay burial and I'd like to add him to my notes.
It is the Qurna Hatiay from the quote out of the Murnane book? I just ask because his connection to the Temple of Aten at Memphis is much like the title for Memphis Hataiy and I did'nt want to get the 2 Hataiy's mixed up.
Memphis Hatiay is also shown making offerings to Osiris and a priest is shown performing the Opening of the Mouth ceremony on the mummy of Raia (Hatiay).
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote Sesen:

Sorry to be a nuisense but I wonder if I could just double check something?

I double checked the two books about the Qurna burial.
Qurna Hatiay burial from the book of Amenhotep III Perspectives On His Reign O'Connor and Cline is the same as the Qurna Hatiay burial from the Murnane book .

This title they found on his coffin, they mentioned it in both books.

"Scribe and granary overseer of the Mansion of the Aten " Hatiay.


But next title is from the staff of Hatiay , only Murnane mentioned it .

This piece , perhaps pilfered from the tomb before its discovery , is inscribed for :

"Scribe of the double granary Hatiay, may he live again ! - the possessor of reverence (belonging to) the house of Aten in Memphis".

Memphis Hatiay
Title :
Scribe of the treasury of the temple of the Aten in Akhet-Aten in Memphis.

Qurna Hatiay = scribe double granary
= two different administrations
Memphis Hatiay = scribe treasury

Do you think it's the same Hatiay ? Because they found Memphis Hatiya 's tomb in 2003, and they say that he wasn't buried in it.
And the information I have from Qurna Hatiay is from books from 1995 and 1997.

If you want the text of the coffin of Qurna Hatiay I will give it to you . Smile
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

quote anneke :Vizier of Lower Egypt Aperel

Did they mentioned in your book about Aperel by Zivie, that they did a radiological examination of the remains of the Vizier Aperel and his family.
The most striking fact is the presence of osteoporosis in the Aperel skeleton, which is a rare phenomenon in men.
I always thought that only women could have osteoporosis.
Recently I have read a medical article and there they confirm that men could also have the disease.

I like to buy the book about Aperel, could you give me the title and the ISBN number.
Thanks in advance.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think they mention anything about the radiological examinations of the skeletal remains. The book I have is an overview of the finds near the Bubasteion. It's not really an excavation report in that it does not give a whole lot of detail per individual tomb.

The book is:
Alain Zivie
Les Tombeaux retrouves de Saqqara
(Photographies de Patrick Chapuis)
ISBN 2 268 04479 3

It's still a very nice book. A tad on the pricey side.
It would be nice to read a real excavation report on this tomb. I don't think one is out yet?
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke, thanks for the information. Smile

I found the information about Aperel skeletal remains (Lichtenberg Roger) on the Leiden University site.

I found also this article there : Alain Zivie La Dame Touy
Une Nubienne à Saqqara

Publication of a stela found in the tomb of the vizier Aperel during the 1984 excavations of this tomb at Saqqara. The stela bears the no. 1984/58 in the excavation inventory and dates from the second part of the XVIIIth dynasty.
The stela portrays the man tjt(A), his wife tw(y) (both sitting), and their son qn(n)A facing them in an offering position. The inscriptions gives no title of the persons. Most remarkable is the very dark skin colour of twy indicating a Nubian origin. The identity and the possibe relationship of the owner and his family to Aperel remain uncertain.

quote : It would be nice to read a real excavation report on this tomb.

I agree with you about that.
In "The Amarna Age , F. Giles "says, unfortunately the material that Zivie has published about the tomb is in the form of a coffee table book, largely empty of the hard detailed information that would enable one to evaluate with some precision the significance of this tomb.
He says also that none of the inscriptions they found has been published.

He also mentioned a book ? Decouverte.
This is a rambling popular account of the discovery and excavatuon of the tomb of Aperel and his family, in which small pieces of information are dispensed.
If you have other information about the tomb of Aperel you may let me know this.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile Thanks alot Rozette for double checking that for me.
I expect that its not really likely that the two Hatiay's are one and the same. So often there are several people at any point of time bearing the same name.

Memphis Hatiay has a father, Iuty Director of the Goldsmiths of the King and according to Alain Zivie a large part of the tomb was decorated after Yr 10 or 12 of Akhenaten.
Qurna Hatiay seems to be a smidgen earlier than that, and with his wife being a Singer of Amun..

Smile Is interesting though, I really enjoy learning more about the nobles.

Very Happy I would love the texts from the coffin, thanks. I'll pm you my email address.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would love the texts from the coffin, thanks. I'll pm you my email address.


Or you could just post them in the Art and literature section. There may be others who would like to see the texts Smile
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomb Qurna Hatiay


Looking at the internet for information about Qurna Hatiay I found this picture.

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/picture07172003.htm

I saw this unguent jar of Lady Siamun in Bonn at the Tutankhamun exhibition.

In Lady Siamun coffin, rich offerings were found, amongst them an engraved bronze bowl, an unguent spoon, kolh tubes, an ivory comb, a hairpin, a mirror, sandals and the statuette shown on the picture.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:07 am    Post subject: Osteoporosis Reply with quote

Does it seem to you that some depictions of Aye show him with a back condition? Im very curious to learn more about Aperel. His name seems Mittanian. But his wife's name is a very traditional rural woman's name. Can you tell us what her complete titles are?
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