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Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tended to assume that Aper-el was a Canaanite style name but it could also extend to a broader Semitic origin. His name is sometimes written as Aper-ia.
The only designation I have for his wife Taweret is simply Lady of the House. Not even a Chantress..

This site translated from Spanish has a picture of the lid of one of her canopic jars.

This article from Tour Egypt shows a image of Aper-el with a daughter - anyone have info on her or is it just a typo?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Wondering... Reply with quote

hello,
I think, there are many false informations about "Aperel".

1.) The Hieroglyphic spelling of his name is clearly "Apr-ia" or "Aper-ja". There Is no reason to translate him as "Aper-El". The semetic theophoric ending "el" (for the devine el) is usually given as "ir" or "re" in old Egypt (because of they had no "l" in their H.). So he must named "Aper-re" or "Aper-ir" for translating him as Aper-El.
2.) The Ending -ia or -ja is very often in Old Egypt. Perhaps it has a word meaning or it is only a form of making little (sorry, do not know the english expression). For Example Tuja, Huja, Juja etc. This all are egypt. names, not semitic endings for Jahwe or El.
3.) "Aper" is often translate as "servant"; so Aper-El would means Servant Of El. But that wouldnt be a name for a priest of aten. In old Eg. they had the word "Bak" for servant, sometimes they use also the semitic word Abdi. But not Aper. This is often written, but wrong.
The mistake comes from the wrong understanding of "Apiru".
But the Hieroglyphs from Aperia are not that of the "Aper" (Habiru / Hebrew?); they are the signs for "equipment". I have only a link for a german site for this: http://aaew.bbaw.de/tla/servlet/BwlBrowser?f=0&l=0&off=0&csz=-1&lcd=apr&tcd=&scd=&pn0=1&db=%C4gyptisch&bc=Start
So his name had the meaning "Equipment of ..." oder "equiped by ..." or so on (we know not exactly, because of the shortcutting "ia" in the name.
4.) So if His name was egypt, his wife and his sons have egypt names, he reached a very high position in Egypt and he get a very egypt burial in saqqara ... There is no, not only one, thing to make him a foreign, i.e. semitic man. It is very clear, that he was simply egypt.

Sorry for my bad english ;-)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:38 pm    Post subject: Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten Reply with quote

The type of name "apr" + deity is well-attested. "apr" does mean "servant" and is the equivalent of Arabic "Abdallah" and Hebrew "Obediah". Aper-el seems a very reasonable transliteration to me.

I don't know if Aper-el had a daughter, but he had a son, Huy, a nickname for Amenhotep.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
The type of name "apr" + deity is well-attested. "apr" does mean "servant" and is the equivalent of Arabic "Abdallah" and Hebrew "Obediah". Aper-el seems a very reasonable transliteration to me.

I don't know if Aper-el had a daughter, but he had a son, Huy, a nickname for Amenhotep.


And Hatiay, of course. This seems to have not been an uncommon nickname, probably representing a formal name containing the element "Hat". If it was "Amenemhat" or a name containing some other proscribed deity, then it probably became "Hatiay" out of necessity during the Amarna interlude. I had some notes on a Hatiay and I'll post them, even though I don't know if the links still work.

The is a stela of Hatiay and his son, Ptahmose:

http://www.norwichfreeacademy.com/slater_museum/shows/cast/3_hatiay_stele.html

Then there is another stela of a Hatiay, an article written about it described at the Leiden Bibliograhy site as "WILLEMS, Harco, The One and the Many in Stela Leiden V1, http://www.leidenuniv.nl/nino/aeb/abbrv.html(1998), 231-243.
"Reconsidering the post-Amarna stela Rijksmuseum van Oudheden Leiden V1 of Hatiay, the author first notes that the owner had been engaged in a large undertaking aiming at refurbishing the traditional Egyptian temples with cult statues after the Amarna iconoclast heresy. He then turns to a semantically unclear use of the demonstrative pronoun. which only in some cases follows a divine name ("it is god X") and in others not, a feature noticeable at several places in the text part devoted to the production of cult statues in which Hatiay was involved.

The author interprets as follows, beginning with the statement "I [Hatiay] was a Master of Secrets, one who saw Re in his forms and Atum in his shape(s)" and continuing with "That is Osiris the Lord of Abydos.... and that is Thoth the Lord of Hermopolis ....".

It is suggested that all the deities mentioned, beginning with Osiris and Thoth, are identified with Re and Atum and that, thus, the cult statues of the various gods are effectively considered effigies of the solar god. Indeed, there is more evidence that the text has a strong pantheistic bias, in keeping with contemporary religion. Hatiay's recognition of the sun god as all-encompassing may betray influence of Amarna theology, to which the importance of Hermopolitan gods, first of all Thoth, in the text may well point. The late Amarna House T 34,1 of one Hatiay may have been his."
Related to this period is the post-Amarna tomb of Meryneith, "seer of the Aten temple" whose superstructure contains a reference to a Hatiay, "prophet of the moon".

http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/saqqara/Excavation/Tombs/Meryneith/Meryneith.htm"
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten Reply with quote

Well, it looks like none of the links work any longer. Sorry about that but perhaps someone else can find some viable ones.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten Reply with quote

Here's a link that does work--archival footage of the excavation of the house of the Amarna Hatiay. Fascinating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXVy4cyyTSM

Also, I am now inclined to think that "HAt-iAy" is the same kind of name as that of Aperel.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten Reply with quote

Thank you Sid for your answers.
But: whats about my points above?
Hataya is a known name in 3 regions (thebes, amarna, saqqara), all in nearly the same time. but the scolars dont agree, if it is all the same person.
more: it is not a semitic name.
there are not semitic sentences about aper-ja.
there is no safe truth about aper-ja, the most is interpretation.
PERHAPS Aper is equal to the semitic Abdi, but APER is only known in EGYPT names, so Aper-ja is an egypt name.
Aper is attested in egypt names in the region memphis since the old kingdom, very early. So it can not be an semitic name.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Semitic speaking beduin had been wandering into Egypt and settling there at least since the Old Kingdom. But I agree there seems no reason to assume Aper-ia was a non-Egyptian. Even if he was, he was clearly completely assimilated.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Meretseger"]Semitic speaking beduin had been wandering into Egypt and settling there at least since the Old Kingdom. But I agree there seems no reason to assume Aper-ia was a non-Egyptian. Even if he was, he was clearly completely assimilated.[/quote]

Thank you for agreeing. I dont understand, why Aper-ja in literature so often is cited/named as a semitic one (only with reference to the claiming of zivie, but without any reasons and evidences.

If Bedouins would be in Egypt, an even if someone would come in high position of the state or temple, he would have an egypt name, or a semitic name, or perhabs both names. But not a name with an egypt part and a semitic part.

Abdi-El = semitic
Aper-ia = egypt
Aper-re = egypt, could be a translation for Abdi-El

But Aper-El (egypt+semitic) is impossible.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

Mykerinos wrote:
hello,
I think, there are many false informations about "Aperel".

1.) The Hieroglyphic spelling of his name is clearly "Apr-ia" or "Aper-ja". There Is no reason to translate him as "Aper-El". The semetic theophoric ending "el" (for the devine el) is usually given as "ir" or "re" in old Egypt (because of they had no "l" in their H.). So he must named "Aper-re" or "Aper-ir" for translating him as Aper-El.


You wanted me to address your points and so I will. "iA" is good for "El" since in the Middle Kingdom /A/ was used for transcribing Semitic "r" and "l". Therefore, I assume this still held true when it came to names for a time. In the later New Kingdom foreign "l" was represented by a combination of /n/ and /r/. At any rate, Egyptologist Alain Zivie, the one who found the man's tomb calls him "Aper-el" and I presume he based this conclusion on some considerable research.

Quote:
2.) The Ending -ia or -ja is very often in Old Egypt. Perhaps it has a word meaning or it is only a form of making little (sorry, do not know the english expression). For Example Tuja, Huja, Juja etc. This all are egypt. names, not semitic endings for Jahwe or El.


None of these name mean anything in the Egyptian language so all one can say about them is that they are either nicknames for some formal Egyptian name or foreign. "Huya" is a nickname for Amenhotep.

Quote:
3.) "Aper" is often translate as "servant"; so Aper-El would means Servant Of El. But that wouldnt be a name for a priest of aten. In old Eg. they had the word "Bak" for servant, sometimes they use also the semitic word Abdi. But not Aper. This is often written, but wrong.


As I said before, there are many examples of "apr + a deity". I once had a whole list but don't know where it is now. There is, of course, the people in the Brooklyn Papyrus called the "Aprw-Reshep" and Reshef is a Canaanite god. I'm sure I remember "Apr-Baal", as well. Baal was worshipped in Lower Egypt and also in the highly-Egyptianized place called Byblos.

Quote:
The mistake comes from the wrong understanding of "Apiru".


No. This has nothing to do with "Apirw".

Quote:
4.) So if His name was egypt, his wife and his sons have egypt names, he reached a very high position in Egypt and he get a very egypt burial in saqqara ... There is no, not only one, thing to make him a foreign, i.e. semitic man. It is very clear, that he was simply egypt.


It was not unusual at all for foreigners or the sons of foreigners to have high positions in Egypt. What about "Amethu also called Ahmose"? He was a vizier and he and his wife, Ta-Amethu, started a line of viziers that ended with Rekhmire in the time of Amenhotep II. "Amethu" is not an Egyptian name.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]. "iA" is good for "El" since in the Middle Kingdom /A/ was used for transcribing Semitic "r" and "l".[/quote]

First, Aperia is not Middle Kingdom, he is new kingdom, amarna period. There are no reasons for using an old spelling in memphis at amarna-time. Second, i dont believe in "ia" for "el" at any time. That was an early interpretation, a believing or hoping. Because of lacking "l" in egypt, the early scolars liked to get every sign for it (a, n, r ...). That is not believable, for the egyptians wouldnt have understood their owne textes.

[quote="SidneyF"]At any rate, Egyptologist Alain Zivie, the one who found the man's tomb calls him "Aper-el" and I presume he based this conclusion on some considerable research. [quote]

Yes, HE called him so - and HE called him semitic - and everyone copies it now from him. But there are no reasons for it. The complete Tomb is real egypt, the name(s) are egypt.

[quote="SidneyF"]None of these name mean anything in the Egyptian language so all one can say about them is that they are either nicknames for some formal Egyptian name or foreign. "Huya" is a nickname for Amenhotep.[quote]

Right. And Amenhotep is EGYPT. Nicknames sometimes are not easy to get their meanings. But they are EGYPT. -ja is an egypt ending.
Perhaps the hebrew took this ending with them (-ja in bible), but the hebrew ending -ja in names is NOT for -el!


[quote="SidneyF"]As I said before, there are many examples of "apr + a deity". I once had a whole list but don't know where it is now. There is, of course, the people in the Brooklyn Papyrus called the "Aprw-Reshep" and Reshef is a Canaanite god. I'm sure I remember "Apr-Baal", as well. Baal was worshipped in Lower Egypt and also in the highly-Egyptianized place called Byblos.[quote]

Right. But Baal is NOT equal El. Worshipping Baal is good known for Egypt (and the equalizing to Seth), but worshipping El is NOT Knwon for Egypt!

Some Scolars think, that the Egyptians wrote the God "Re" for "El". Thats possible, perhaps. But Re isn't -ia - an El isnt -ia. The Ending -ia isnt a god - there is no determinative for god in cause of any names with -ia.

[quote="SidneyF"]It was not unusual at all for foreigners or the sons of foreigners to have high positions in Egypt. What about "Amethu also called Ahmose"? He was a vizier and he and his wife, Ta-Amethu, started a line of viziers that ended with Rekhmire in the time of Amenhotep II. "Amethu" is not an Egyptian name.[/quote]

Correct. Then there are 2 names (a semitic and a egyptian). But Aper-El (see my post above) would be a mixture of semitic and egyptian - that is impossible; and there are no other words from 3000 years, mixing semitic and egypt.

And: Aper-ia was a priest of Aten in Memphis. There is no reason for getting -ia or -el for Aten. El was not a sun-god. So Akhnaten would not named a foreign priest of El as a priest of Aten. Thats impossible.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="Mykerinos"]
SidneyF wrote:
. "iA" is good for "El" since in the Middle Kingdom /A/ was used for transcribing Semitic "r" and "l".


Quote:
First, Aperia is not Middle Kingdom, he is new kingdom, amarna period. There are no reasons for using an old spelling in memphis at amarna-time. Second, i dont believe in "ia" for "el" at any time.


James Hoch, an expert in the Egyptian language and also Semitic languages, gives the examples from Dynasty 18 on page 27 of his book, "Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period". They are

"Older (historical) writing of El with 3 for /l/

apr-i3 Saqqara Tomb
b3ti-i3 Urk. IV 785, 97
rby-i3 Name List
s3by-i3 Name List"

All examples are from Dynasty 18 and Hoch, of course, writes /3/ for /A/--there is no difference whatsoever, just a transliteration preference.
I really think you should believe in "iA" for El.

Quote:
That was an early interpretation, a believing or hoping. Because of lacking "l" in egypt, the early scolars liked to get every sign for it (a, n, r ...). That is not believable, for the egyptians wouldnt have understood their owne textes.


Hoch's book only dates back to 1994 and is certainly not out of use. Egyptians had various ways of writing foreign "l" and some predominated at various times.

SidneyF wrote:
At any rate, Egyptologist Alain Zivie, the one who found the man's tomb calls him "Aper-el" and I presume he based this conclusion on some considerable research.


Quote:
Yes, HE called him so - and HE called him semitic - and everyone copies it now from him. But there are no reasons for it. The complete Tomb is real egypt, the name(s) are egypt.


Now you know some reasons for it. Just because Aper-el had an Egyptian tomb doesn't mean he wasn't a foreigner. In fact, it seems quite probable he was as he was "a child of the kap", a kind of school for the children of conquered foreign dignitaries so they could become Egyptianized and go back to rule their countries, loyal to Egypt, or stay in Egypt as Egyptians.

SidneyF wrote:
None of these name mean anything in the Egyptian language so all one can say about them is that they are either nicknames for some formal Egyptian name or foreign. "Huya" is a nickname for Amenhotep.


Quote:
Right. And Amenhotep is EGYPT.


Actually, it was only written "Hwy" by the Egyptians and the foreigns wrote it as "Haya" in the Amarna Letters.


Quote:
Nicknames sometimes are not easy to get their meanings. But they are EGYPT. -ja is an egypt ending.
Perhaps the hebrew took this ending with them (-ja in bible), but the hebrew ending -ja in names is NOT for -el!


"ja" is not an Egyptian ending. Very few names, even nicknames, end with it. There is Benia, a tomb owner, but his father clearly has a Hurrian name.


[quote="SidneyF"]As I said before, there are many examples of "apr + a deity". I once had a whole list but don't know where it is now. There is, of course, the people in the Brooklyn Papyrus called the "Aprw-Reshep" and Reshef is a Canaanite god. I'm sure I remember "Apr-Baal", as well. Baal was worshipped in Lower Egypt and also in the highly-Egyptianized place called Byblos.[/[quote]

Quote:
Right. But Baal is NOT equal El. Worshipping Baal is good known for Egypt (and the equalizing to Seth), but worshipping El is NOT Knwon for Egypt!


I don't know, but that doesn't stop people with such names from coming to Egypt.


Quote:
And: Aper-ia was a priest of Aten in Memphis. There is no reason for getting -ia or -el for Aten. El was not a sun-god. So Akhnaten would not named a foreign priest of El as a priest of Aten. Thats impossible.


We cannot say what was possible or impossible with Akhenaten. Aper-el was a very important man because he was an "it nTr", meaning a tutor and/or advisor to a king.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]James Hoch, an expert in the Egyptian language and also Semitic languages, gives the examples from Dynasty 18 on page 27 of his book, "Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period". They are
"Older (historical) writing of El with 3 for /l/
apr-i3 Saqqara Tomb
b3ti-i3 Urk. IV 785, 97
rby-i3 Name List
s3by-i3 Name List"
All examples are from Dynasty 18 and Hoch, of course, writes /3/ for /A/--there is no difference whatsoever, just a transliteration preference.
I really think you should believe in "iA" for El.[/quote]

1. I dont want to BELIEVE, this is science, i want to KNOW.
2. Hoch believe in it, it is an opinion, but without any evidence.
3. ia is still in use also in 18., 19., 20. dyn. Why, if ia would be el in MR, it is still in use? in NR el is re, it is not possible, that there are 2 often used translations for el in egypt at the same time.

[quote="SidneyF"]Hoch's book only dates back to 1994 and is certainly not out of use. Egyptians had various ways of writing foreign "l" and some predominated at various times. [/quote]

PERHAPS it is thinkable, that there were various writings for foreign "l", but it is not thinkable, that there were various writings for "El" (deity).
The egyptians wouldnt have understood their own texts, if there were such a chaos in their writings.

[quote="SidneyF"]At any rate, Egyptologist Alain Zivie, the one who found the man's tomb calls him "Aper-el" and I presume he based this conclusion on some considerable research. [/quote]

Yes - HE CALLED him so and you PRESUME that he is right ^^.
That is not science! If someone call an egyptian official a foreigner, i want to have EVIDENCES for this!

[quote="SidneyF"]Now you know some reasons for it. Just because Aper-el had an Egyptian tomb doesn't mean he wasn't a foreigner. [/quote]

Correct. But WHY he should be a foreigner? If there are no evidences in his tomb - where are the evidences? The only reason for call him semitic was the Transkription and Translation of his name - and this is, as i wrote above, very uncertain.

[quote="SidneyF"]In fact, it seems quite probable he was as he was "a child of the kap", a kind of school for the children of conquered foreign dignitaries so they could become Egyptianized and go back to rule their countries, loyal to Egypt, or stay in Egypt as Egyptians. [/quote]

If it would be so, there would be some reminiscences of his home country in this tomb. He would be a son of a king or high family in his foreign home country, his descent would be important, so that his family and the hometown and -country would be mentioned in his tomb.
He would have had correspondence to his home country, he would give semitic names to his childs, he would have writings about the history of his home country, he would have had presents from his foreign family etc.
There is NOTHING in this direction.
So your opinion is only conjecture. WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE.

[quote="SidneyF"]Actually, it was only written "Hwy" by the Egyptians and the foreigns wrote it as "Haya" in the Amarna Letters.[/quote]

Correct. There are some names with -ia/-ja/-ya in the Amarna Letters. And the Amarna Letters are in cuneiform and in akkadic, so in semitic. Why, if -ia would mean El like you state, this names are not writen with the semitic El?
Most of the Amarna Letters are writings FROM semitic people TO the egyptian court - so they would prefare the semitic names/writings.
But they do not - because ia IS NOT el.


[quote="SidneyF"]"ja" is not an Egyptian ending. Very few names, even nicknames, end with it. There is Benia, a tomb owner, but his father clearly has a Hurrian name.[/quote]

ja is so often used in egypt names! You mean, this people are all non-egypt? Tuja, Huya, Juja, Teje ........ and so on?
That would mean, half of the egypt officials (include royal families) would have been semitic. That is quite non-science.
There were some semitic (or foreign) people in Egypt, but if they get a official position, they get a second (a egypt) name. And -ja was in use only for egypt names (as for egypt or for foreign persons, but only egypt names - in all the times: AR, MR, NR.

[quote="SidneyF"]We cannot say what was possible or impossible with Akhenaten. Aper-el was a very important man because he was an "it nTr", meaning a tutor and/or advisor to a king.[/quote]

Yes, and Akhenaten tried to establish the aten-religion. He accepted only aten and some sun-deitys. We know, that the other religions and gods still were woreshipped in egypt (without knowledge to Ak.), but not in official positions!
El was not a sun-god, so it is impossible, that a El-woreshipper get the position of a aten-priest in memphis.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

Mykerinos wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
James Hoch, an expert in the Egyptian language and also Semitic languages, gives the examples from Dynasty 18 on page 27 of his book, "Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period". They are
"Older (historical) writing of El with 3 for /l/
apr-i3 Saqqara Tomb
b3ti-i3 Urk. IV 785, 97
rby-i3 Name List
s3by-i3 Name List"
All examples are from Dynasty 18 and Hoch, of course, writes /3/ for /A/--there is no difference whatsoever, just a transliteration preference.
I really think you should believe in "iA" for El.


Quote:
1. I dont want to BELIEVE, this is science, i want to KNOW.
2. Hoch believe in it, it is an opinion, but without any evidence.
3. ia is still in use also in 18., 19., 20. dyn. Why, if ia would be el in MR, it is still in use? in NR el is re, it is not possible, that there are 2 often used translations for el in egypt at the same time.


/A/ retained its old usage in some words until even Coptic. I did not say there were two transliterations of "el" at the same time. The combination of /n/ and /r/ for "l" is leter 19th Dynasty.

SidneyF wrote:
Hoch's book only dates back to 1994 and is certainly not out of use. Egyptians had various ways of writing foreign "l" and some predominated at various times.


Quote:
PERHAPS it is thinkable, that there were various writings for foreign "l", but it is not thinkable, that there were various writings for "El" (deity). The egyptians wouldnt have understood their own texts, if there were such a chaos in their writings.


Most Egyptians couldn't read, anyway. The ones who could were clever enough to understand that 'l' was meant, I'm sure.

SidneyF wrote:
At any rate, Egyptologist Alain Zivie, the one who found the man's tomb calls him "Aper-el" and I presume he based this conclusion on some considerable research.


Quote:
Yes - HE CALLED him so and you PRESUME that he is right ^^.
That is not science! If someone call an egyptian official a foreigner, i want to have EVIDENCES for this!


I don't presume-- because I know he can be right from my own research based on the research of others, like Hoch. I gave you evidence, which you choose to ignore. What person born in Egypt was ever a "child of the kap"?

SidneyF wrote:
In fact, it seems quite probable he was as he was "a child of the kap", a kind of school for the children of conquered foreign dignitaries so they could become Egyptianized and go back to rule their countries, loyal to Egypt, or stay in Egypt as Egyptians.


Quote:
If it would be so, there would be some reminiscences of his home country in this tomb. He would be a son of a king or high family in his foreign home country, his descent would be important, so that his family and the hometown and -country would be mentioned in his tomb.
He would have had correspondence to his home country, he would give semitic names to his childs, he would have writings about the history of his home country, he would have had presents from his foreign family etc.
There is NOTHING in this direction. So your opinion is only conjecture. WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE.


What you propose is without evidence because there is never anything like that in the tomb of an Egyptian, even though some were clearly of foreign extraction from their names or the names of their parents. Such people became Egyptians, part of Egyptian life, so why would they necessarily give their children foreign names?

SidneyF wrote:
Actually, it was only written "Hwy" by the Egyptians and the foreigns wrote it as "Haya" in the Amarna Letters.


lquote]Correct. There are some names with -ia/-ja/-ya in the Amarna Letters. And the Amarna Letters are in cuneiform and in akkadic, so in semitic. Why, if -ia would mean El like you state, this names are not writen with the semitic El?


There are only two--"Haya" and "Maia"--or Hwy and MayA", both of which are written with /y/ in Egyptian and not /i/. Those two letters were not the same at all.

Quote:
Most of the Amarna Letters are writings FROM semitic people TO the egyptian court - so they would prefare the semitic names/writings.
But they do not - because ia IS NOT el.


[sigh]


SidneyF wrote:
"ja" is not an Egyptian ending. Very few names, even nicknames, end with it. There is Benia, a tomb owner, but his father clearly has a Hurrian name.


Quote:
ja is so often used in egypt names! You mean, this people are all non-egypt? Tuja, Huya, Juja, Teje ........ and so on?


You seem to be confusing /i/ with /y/.

Quote:
That would mean, half of the egypt officials (include royal families) would have been semitic. That is quite non-science.
There were some semitic (or foreign) people in Egypt, but if they get a official position, they get a second (a egypt) name. And -ja was in use only for egypt names (as for egypt or for foreign persons, but only egypt names - in all the times: AR, MR, NR.


Sometimes they did take Egyptian names--sometimes not. What about Bay? He was a chancellor. What about Ay--who became a king? What kind of an Egyptian names are those? In fact, the name of Ay is clearly written in group writing--which is for foreign names.

SidneyF wrote:
We cannot say what was possible or impossible with Akhenaten. Aper-el was a very important man because he was an "it nTr", meaning a tutor and/or advisor to a king.


Quote:
Yes, and Akhenaten tried to establish the aten-religion. He accepted only aten and some sun-deitys. We know, that the other religions and gods still were woreshipped in egypt (without knowledge to Ak.), but not in official positions! El was not a sun-god, so it is impossible, that a El-woreshipper get the position of a aten-priest in memphis.


The name "el" had two uses. There was the god El of the Canaanites, Amorites, those of Ugarit, and he was the chief of the gods. But "el" could mean just "god", too--any god--and "elim" is the plural. Therefore, "el" could be the equivalent of the Egyptian word "nTr".
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Mykerinos
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]
/A/ retained its old usage in some words until even Coptic. I did not say there were two transliterations of "el" at the same time. The combination of /n/ and /r/ for "l" is leter 19th Dynasty. [/quote]

In Merenptah Stela is a word, which most scolars identify as Isreal. The signs for the -el in Isreal would be D21+Z1. D21 is "r". In Hyksos time there are semitic names in Hieroglyphics with "-bar"; most scolars identify this as "Baal". So there is "r" = "l" in 17. Dyn. and in 19. Dyn. Why should "l" in 18. Dyn (between the above) be translated as "n" or "ia"?

[quote="SidneyF"]Most Egyptians couldn't read, anyway. The ones who could were clever enough to understand that 'l' was meant, I'm sure. [/quote]

The understanding of a script system with over 700 signs is only possible, if there are clear meanings and regulars. Otherwise there would not be an understanding of a reader, who is far away from the writer.

[quote="SidneyF"]I don't presume-- because I know he can be right from my own research based on the research of others, like Hoch. I gave you evidence, which you choose to ignore. What person born in Egypt was ever a "child of the kap"?[/quote]

For most childs of the kap we know nothing. There are only a few sure informations. So we can not know it exactly. It is really possible, that also childs of Egypt officials, regional rulers etc. could be childs of the kap.


[quote="SidneyF"]What you propose is without evidence because there is never anything like that in the tomb of an Egyptian, even though some were clearly of foreign extraction from their names or the names of their parents. Such people became Egyptians, part of Egyptian life, so why would they necessarily give their children foreign names? [/quote]

Not necessarily, I didnt said that. I only asked for evidences, that Aperia was a foreign, a semitic. And i stated the absence of this evidences.
Who has to bring the evidences? If i would claim, that George Washington was born in China - is it to me, to bring evidences for that, or is it to you, to bring evidences, that he was born in America?

Zivie has said, that Aperia was semitic - he has to bring evidences for that. But he didnt. There is NO Evidence. He only translated his name in this way; and so much this is uncertain, so much is uncertain, that Aperia was semitic.

[quote="SidneyF"]There are only two--"Haya" and "Maia"--or Hwy and MayA", both of which are written with /y/ in Egyptian and not /i/. Those two letters were not the same at all.
You seem to be confusing /i/ with /y/.[/quote]

i is M17 single, y is M17 double. So this are quite similar and related signs. There are many words in thesaurus, which are sometimes spelled with M17 single and sometimes M17 double, include even king names.


[quote="SidneyF"]Sometimes they did take Egyptian names--sometimes not. [/quote]

Thats correct. But never a MIXTURE Name.


[quote="SidneyF"]What about Bay? He was a chancellor. What about Ay--who became a king? What kind of an Egyptian names are those? In fact, the name of Ay is clearly written in group writing--which is for foreign names. [/quote]

Bay: Most scolars agree, that is an egypt name for a person with syrian origins.
Ay: ? What do you mean? You really want to say, that Ay is semitic? I never heard that in any science book! (There was a first Ay in older times before, also sure egyptian).

[quote="SidneyF"]The name "el" had two uses. There was the god El of the Canaanites, Amorites, those of Ugarit, and he was the chief of the gods. But "el" could mean just "god", too--any god--and "elim" is the plural. Therefore, "el" could be the equivalent of the Egyptian word "nTr".[/quote]

1. "nTr" is not available in Aperia's name.
2. The generally "El" for god is escpecially used in the later languages (hebrew is, like most scolars think, originated about 1000 BC - in Aperias time not available).
Till 1200 BC the Ugarit and Canaanite religion exists, in that time El will meant surely the Deity El. After the Ugarit and Canaanite religion went down (1200 - 1000 BC) the word get transformed into the generally meaning "god".
So in Aperias time El would have meant the canaanite god El.

And I repeat:
In Aperias name is not a netjer. In Aperias name is not an El. In Aperias name is not an Re. So the name can NOT be transkripted/translated as Aper-El. And therefore there is no more reason to call him a semitic.
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