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Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just in case anyone is curious: Werel/Wer(e)ner is a female name from Egypt.
In the tomb of Ramose there is a depiction of his brother May and his wife Werner.

See Getty Image

And if the "el" were to refer to a deity, wouldn't it have been the glyph they started the name with, instead of it appearing at the end? That alone would argue to this being any reference to a god.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagine there were at least as many Egyptians of Semitic origin (however far back) in Lower Egypt and there were Egyptians of Kushite origin in Upper Egypt - especially after the Hyksos invasion and the campaigns of Thutmose III. The words 'so what' come to mind.

We know for numerous examples that foreigners who accepted Egyptian ways were accepted as Egyptians and after a generation or two they would be just another Elite family and as eligible for high official rank as anybody. POSSIBLY a family name or two would remain as a reminder of their foreign origins, possibly not. But in every way that mattered they'd be Egyptians. Certainly in the eyes of other Egyptians.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

Mykerinos wrote:

Quote:
The earliest hebrew scipture findings date from about 700 BC. From the whole time in the 1000 years BC there are very few findings. Therefore all scolars agree (even the theological!) that Hebrew is originated about 800/1000 BC as a west-semitic dialect from the canaanite.


Well, what is it? 700? 800? 1000 BC? Obviously, you have no idea and are also evidently unaware that evidence of writing has nothing to do with the spoken language.

Quote:
If the Hebrew would have been originated in Egypt, as you say, and if the "Children of Isreal" lived there for 400 years, as the bible say, than the hebrew language would have many influences from the egyptian language. But thats not the case.


I don't follow your logic. Why should the language of a minority have any great influence on Egyptian? Do you believe the language of the Hyksos had any great influence? I don't. But, for your information, there are numerous cognates between Egyptian [an Afro-Asiatic language] and Semitic and loan words, as well. For things that did not originate in Egypt, such as a vineyard, for example.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

Mykerinos wrote:
We know nothing about israelite people in egypt. There are no archaelogical evidences found about them. A great nation, millions of people, as the bible, exodus, state, would have left archaeological references.


Millions of people? Where does it say that? My people were wandering beduin in those days. Such are not very numerous nor do they leave much of an archaeological footprint. Also the Habiru who became Hebrews would be indistinguishable archaeologically except maybe dietarily.

The Joseph story possibly indicates that SOME members of the tribal group assimilated and even achieved some rank (far from impossible as I point out above). The 'slavery' was probably impressment into assorted building works. I do not insist on literal plagues - ten has always struck me as a suspicously even number - however taking advantage of some kind of natural disaster or epidemic to make tracks seems probable.

The Old Testament NEVER depicts the Patriarchs or the Early Israelites as ANYTHING but nomadic tribesmen or one small nation among other small nations in the Levant. Nothing at ALL improbable about that.

There isn't a lot of AE influence visible among any Levantine people dispite being ruled by Egyptians for several centuries so why would beduin who never adopted any AE ways show such?

The Exodus is unprovable. I readily acknowledge that. But the the basic bones of the story are not particularly improbable or unlikely and could easily be genuine history.
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Mykerinos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"][quote="anneke"][quote="SidneyF"]<..> I have not seen where anybody disagrees bAk[t]-wr-nr contains the element "El". Here. You can see the glyphs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baketwernel

[/quote]

[quote]I am a bit confused by this argument. I have never seen anyone (besides you here) argue that Baketwerel (Baketwerner) refers to "El"[/quote]

Then I leave it to you or Mykerinos to explain what (Baketwerner) means in Egyptian.[/quote]

Ranke, Book I, S. 92, No. 10: He seams to be unsure, what it means; but he refers to No. 9: (same transcriptian, various signs), which he translate as "Dienerin der großen Göttin" (female servant of the great female goodess).

Thesaurus Aeg: If you search there "N35+Z2+D21+Z1" you get 48 exactly words. Many Person-Names, but also many egyptian words includes this 4 signs in exactly this order. There are meanings like "out of" or "tooth" and many more.

So it is clear, that this name-element N35+Z2+D21+Z1 is originally egyptian language, but there can be various meanings, so that we cant surely translate the names including this signs. (The First Element Baket is clear)
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

Anneke wrote:

Quote:
And if the "el" were to refer to a deity, wouldn't it have been the glyph they started the name with, instead of it appearing at the end? That alone would argue to this being any reference to a god.


I think you missed the examples I gave from Hoch. But I'm not sure what you mean. Like names were written in a cartouche?
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Mykerinos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]Well, what is it? 700? 800? 1000 BC? Obviously, you have no idea and are also evidently unaware that evidence of writing has nothing to do with the spoken language. [/quote]

You cannot expect an exactly date. But the language scolars can really get informations about periods. Did you read anything about that?

Signs, Words, Spellings, Grammatica ... all this can be classified in evolution of languages, so classified in time periods.

[quote="SidneyF"]I don't follow your logic. Why should the language of a minority have any great influence on Egyptian? Do you believe the language of the Hyksos had any great influence? I don't. But, for your information, there are numerous cognates between Egyptian [an Afro-Asiatic language] and Semitic and loan words, as well. For things that did not originate in Egypt, such as a vineyard, for example.[/quote]

You misunderstood. Vice versa: If there were "Children of Israel" in Egypt and they originated their language (Hebrew) there, and they stayed there a long time, such as 400 years as the Bible says, than we would find egyptian influences in the HEBREW LANGUAGE. Also egypt loanwords in the HEBREW LANGUAGE. Can you give me one?

In the Bible (argueing that she is originally written in old hebrew) there are only some toponyms or person-names of egyptian, but not one influence coming from the egyptian language to the hebrew language. NOT ONE.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

I forgot to address your other point, Anneke. You wrote:

Quote:
I am a bit confused by this argument. I have never seen anyone (besides you here) argue that Baketwerel (Baketwerner) refers to "El"


Then why do they write it Baketwernel? The Dodsons in their book of the genealogy of the royal families accept that spelling and surmise the lady was a wife of Ramesses IX. The name could mean "Great servant of El".
But I have to say I have my doubts about this particular name, even though Hoch does believe that the combination /n/+/r/ equates "l" in group writing. If I recollect correctly, Cerny did think there was a name "Wernero" that was a nickname for Hathor.
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Mykerinos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="Meretseger"] Millions of people? Where does it say that? My people were wandering beduin in those days. Such are not very numerous nor do they leave much of an archaeological footprint. Also the Habiru who became Hebrews would be indistinguishable archaeologically except maybe dietarily.
The Joseph story possibly indicates that SOME members of the tribal group assimilated and even achieved some rank (far from impossible as I point out above). The 'slavery' was probably impressment into assorted building works. I do not insist on literal plagues - ten has always struck me as a suspicously even number - however taking advantage of some kind of natural disaster or epidemic to make tracks seems probable.
The Old Testament NEVER depicts the Patriarchs or the Early Israelites as ANYTHING but nomadic tribesmen or one small nation among other small nations in the Levant. Nothing at ALL improbable about that.
There isn't a lot of AE influence visible among any Levantine people dispite being ruled by Egyptians for several centuries so why would beduin who never adopted any AE ways show such?
The Exodus is unprovable. I readily acknowledge that. But the the basic bones of the story are not particularly improbable or unlikely and could easily be genuine history.[/quote]

Hm, i dont wanted to start a bible-discussion here. I thought, this is a science board?

Only short: Joseph, you are right, argueing with the bible, was only a family of 70 persons. But than the Bible claims, they stayed 400 years in egypt, than they made Exodus ("with 600.000 male"). So it would have been Millions (include women and childs).

Archaeological evidences about the Habiru were left in Egypt, but they weren't millions, they lived not at one place for a long period and they didnt make an Exodus (in that form, the bible claims).

But, in religion everyone is free in believing. I wanted to talk about science things. The transcription and translation of the name Aperia is only a science question. And the problem, if he could be semitic or not, ist only a science problem. I only wanted to discuss this.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="Mykerinos"]

Quote:
Hm, i dont wanted to start a bible-discussion here. I thought, this is a science board?


But you are the one who brought it up.

Quote:
Only short: Joseph, you are right, argueing with the bible, was only a family of 70 persons. But than the Bible claims, they stayed 400 years in egypt, than they made Exodus ("with 600.000 male"). So it would have been Millions (include women and childs).


That would be an incredible number. Donald Redford wrote that, had even the 600,000 been correct, half the population of Egypt would have left. However, that doesn't mean people didn't leave Egypt, just because the number written in the Bible is not accurate.


Quote:
Archaeological evidences about the Habiru were left in Egypt, but they weren't millions, they lived not at one place for a long period and they didnt make an Exodus (in that form, the bible claims).


You seem so sure of everything. Thutmose III and his successor, Amenhotep II, brought back thousands of people to Egypt from Canaan. What happened to them? Were they just wandering around Egypt?

Quote:
But, in religion everyone is free in believing. I wanted to talk about science things. The transcription and translation of the name Aperia is only a science question. And the problem, if he could be semitic or not, ist only a science problem. I only wanted to discuss this.


As far as I am aware, somebody engaged in the type of science represented by Egyptology is supposed to have an open mind, entertain possibilities beyond his own notions. Otherwise there would be no progress, only stalemates, with each one clinging to his own convictions and ignoring the evidence presented by others.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
I don't follow your logic. Why should the language of a minority have any great influence on Egyptian? Do you believe the language of the Hyksos had any great influence? I don't. But, for your information, there are numerous cognates between Egyptian [an Afro-Asiatic language] and Semitic and loan words, as well. For things that did not originate in Egypt, such as a vineyard, for example.


[quote=Mykerinos]
Quote:
You misunderstood. Vice versa: If there were "Children of Israel" in Egypt and they originated their language (Hebrew) there, and they stayed there a long time, such as 400 years as the Bible says, than we would find egyptian influences in the HEBREW LANGUAGE. Also egypt loanwords in the HEBREW LANGUAGE. Can you give me one?


Sure. "Anoki Adonai Elohekha" or "I am the Lord your God" "Anoki is Egyptian "ink"--not Hebrew.

Quote:
In the Bible (argueing that she is originally written in old hebrew) there are only some toponyms or person-names of egyptian, but not one influence coming from the egyptian language to the hebrew language. NOT ONE.


Also "pharaoh"--that's not a personal name. And "pa-neakh", an element of Joseph's Egyptian name has been borrowed into modern Hebrew for "cryptography". I doubt you are a Hebrew scholar and neither am I. I don't know enough about the Hebrew language, classical or otherwise, to know the etymology of every word. Regardless, I don't see why you think so many Egyptian words should have been borrowed into Hebrew just because the Hebrews lived in Egypt. Egypt ruled the east for a long time. There was such a thing as the Egyptian empire, but the language of Canaan did not become Egyptian.
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Mykerinos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]
That would be an incredible number. [/quote]

So thats why i dont believe in that.

[quote="SidneyF"]Donald Redford wrote that, had even the 600,000 been correct, half the population of Egypt would have left. However, that doesn't mean people didn't leave Egypt, just because the number written in the Bible is not accurate. [/quote]

Not accurate, lol. Thats the evidence, why the whole story is wrong. The Bible often repeats the census (Exod, Num, Deut, Jos, ...), and often in complexe numbers (non1000er, dont know the english word for that).

[quote]You seem so sure of everything. Thutmose III and his successor, Amenhotep II, brought back thousands of people to Egypt from Canaan. What happened to them? Were they just wandering around Egypt?[/quote]

In most egyptian texts the pharaos made only a few prisoners. There is only one single document, which claims the enourmos Number of 89.000 Prisoners, brought to Egypt - the one of Amenhotep II.
While it is so different to all other documents, many scolars dont believe in that number.
How could the egyptian army (which perhaps only are 1000 Men) so many people bring as prisoners to Egypt? It difficult to imagine.

It is more seriously, that Pharaos brought perhaps a few 100 people as prisoners from their wars to egypt.

[quote]As far as I am aware, somebody engaged in the type of science represented by Egyptology is supposed to have an open mind, entertain possibilities beyond his own notions. Otherwise there would be no progress, only stalemates, with each one clinging to his own convictions and ignoring the evidence presented by others.[/quote]

Thats what i did. I examined the wrong suggestion, Aperia could named Aper-El and was a semit. One man, Zivie, claimed that without any evidence, and over the years many people cited that. So now we have to eliminate that mistake. Thats the progress, we agree ;-)
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Mykerinos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]Sure. "Anoki Adonai Elohekha" or "I am the Lord your God" "Anoki is Egyptian "ink"--not Hebrew.[/quote]

You know, that the old hebrew is not very surely known?

Please give a source of your words, otherwise there is no discussion possible. Perhaps you mean Anokhi Adonai Elohekha (Brakhot 4b)? So in this passage the Anokhi is translated as (engl. I, or majest. we). Thats not the same as the egyptian ankh. ^^
And see: This is modern Hebrew. Old Hebrew was without vokals, like other semitic languages. How near the modern Hebrew is to the Old Hebrew is not very sure. The Vokals are modern additions.

[quote]Also "pharaoh"--that's not a personal name. [/quote]

Thank you for getting an evidence for my opinion :-))
Pharao was the kings title in Egypt - but not before Si-Amun about 950 BC.

[quote]And "pa-neakh", an element of Joseph's Egyptian name has been borrowed into modern Hebrew for "cryptography". [/quote]

Josephs Name is given as Zapenat-Paneach. Many scolars have thought of that - some mean, it is the egyptian name of Joseph, some mean, it is a official title (but than, not for a "vezir"). In both cases it is not a real loanword.

[quote]I doubt you are a Hebrew scholar and neither am I. I don't know enough about the Hebrew language, classical or otherwise, to know the etymology of every word. [/quote]

Than you should stop to make claimings.

There are many books about the classical hebrew language; especially Gesenius is very useful. You should read - than you will see, that it is really clear and there are many evidences for dating the origin of the hebrew language in the time about 700 / 1000 BC. Not only archaelogical evidences, as you stated, also grammatical, vocabular and so on.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

Mykerinos wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
Sure. "Anoki Adonai Elohekha" or "I am the Lord your God" "Anoki is Egyptian "ink"--not Hebrew.


Quote:
You know, that the old hebrew is not very surely known?


I agree that it is not very surely known by you. Otherwise, you couldn't be more incorrect.

Quote:
Please give a source of your words, otherwise there is no discussion possible. Perhaps you mean Anokhi Adonai Elohekha (Brakhot 4b)? So in this passage the Anokhi is translated as (engl. I, or majest. we). Thats not the same as the egyptian ankh. ^^


What "ankh"? I didn't say anything about "ankh". In commenting on the words, "I am - Anochi - the Lord your God...," the opening words of the Ten Commandments, the Midrash states: "The word 'Anochi' is of Egyptian origin." And so it is. "ink" is how "I am" is written in Egyptian, in Coptic "anok". The way to say "I am" in Hebrew is "ani". Where are your sources? All you seem to offer is "most Egyptologists" or "most Biblical scholars" think, say, etc. Like they all agree! When you claimed that the pharaohs went to war with no more than 100 soldiers [do most Egyptologists say this? I doubt it!] I basically gave up trying to reason with you. So that's it.


And see: This is modern Hebrew. Old Hebrew was without vokals, like other semitic languages. How near the modern Hebrew is to the Old Hebrew is not very sure. The Vokals are modern additions.

Quote:
Also "pharaoh"--that's not a personal name.


Thank you for getting an evidence for my opinion Smile)
Pharao was the kings title in Egypt - but not before Si-Amun about 950 BC.

Quote:
And "pa-neakh", an element of Joseph's Egyptian name has been borrowed into modern Hebrew for "cryptography".


Josephs Name is given as Zapenat-Paneach. Many scolars have thought of that - some mean, it is the egyptian name of Joseph, some mean, it is a official title (but than, not for a "vezir"). In both cases it is not a real loanword.

Quote:
I doubt you are a Hebrew scholar and neither am I. I don't know enough about the Hebrew language, classical or otherwise, to know the etymology of every word.


Than you should stop to make claimings.

There are many books about the classical hebrew language; especially Gesenius is very useful. You should read - than you will see, that it is really clear and there are many evidences for dating the origin of the hebrew language in the time about 700 / 1000 BC. Not only archaelogical evidences, as you stated, also grammatical, vocabular and so on.
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Mykerinos
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]What "ankh"? I didn't say anything about "ankh". In commenting on the words, "I am - Anochi - the Lord your God...," the opening words of the Ten Commandments, the Midrash states: "The word 'Anochi' is of Egyptian origin." And so it is. [/quote]

The Midrash is a religious book, not a science source.
Can you give the signs (egypt, gardiner-List) for the Eg. "I Am" and the (old hebrew) signs for opening Ten Com.? So than we could match it.

But you can not. The oldest bible texts, we have, are about 100 BC. We dont know if or in which form the bible text was in 900 BC (if he existed so early).

The words "I am" can be similar in all languages of the world. If such a generally word would be loaned from egyptian, than there would be many more egyptian in hebrew and bible. But it isnt.

[quote="SidneyF"]"ink" is how "I am" is written in Egyptian, in Coptic "anok". The way to say "I am" in Hebrew is "ani". Where are your sources? All you seem to offer is "most Egyptologists" or "most Biblical scholars" think, say, etc. Like they all agree! When you claimed that the pharaohs went to war with no more than 100 soldiers [do most Egyptologists say this? I doubt it!] [/quote]

Please, go exactly! I wrote "a few 100 soldiers", an i wrote "not many more than 100 soldiers" (in meaning per yearly campaign.

Read Moran "Amarna Letters": The normally number of a soldier entity, who get to canaan to fight, was 50. Only in great wars (Ramses and Hitties, Thutmose III and the Mitanni) there were greater armys on the walk.

You ask me for sources? Read this thread again. I gave many sources. But whats about your sources? THe longer the discussion go, the more you give only religious (non-science) Sources and no sources.

And what about all the arguments, i wrote? The most you forget to answer. I answered you at all your points. Why dont you answer to my arguments?

[quote="SidneyF"]"I basically gave up trying to reason with you. So that's it. [/quote]

Well. Without arguments and without evidences and without reading science literature you cant otherwise.

8)
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