Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Aperel, Vizier under Amenhotep and Akhenaten
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SidneyF
Banned


Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="Mykerinos]
Quote:
In Merenptah Stela is a word, which most scolars identify as Isreal. The signs for the -el in Isreal would be D21+Z1. D21 is "r". In Hyksos time there are semitic names in Hieroglyphics with "-bar"; most scolars identify this as "Baal". So there is "r" = "l" in 17. Dyn. and in 19. Dyn. Why should "l" in 18. Dyn (between the above) be translated as "n" or "ia"?


Because it was! Did I not give you the examples from Hoch of the 18th Dynasty where 'iA" can only represent "el"? Hoch wrote that /n/+/r/ was not used very often for Semitic "l" and mostly /r/ was used. I, myself, only know the names bAk-wr-nr" from the Papyrus Abbott and bAkt-wr-nr [fem.] from a tomb.


SidneyF wrote:
I don't presume-- because I know he can be right from my own research based on the research of others, like Hoch. I gave you evidence, which you choose to ignore. What person born in Egypt was ever a "child of the kap"?


Quote:
For most childs of the kap we know nothing. There are only a few sure informations. So we can not know it exactly. It is really possible, that also childs of Egypt officials, regional rulers etc. could be childs of the kap.


I have not done a survey of the children of the kap, but I have not seen any evidence thus far that Egyptian children were involved. Can you prove that Aper-el was not a foreigner?


Quote:
Zivie has said, that Aperia was semitic - he has to bring evidences for that. But he didnt. There is NO Evidence. He only translated his name in this way; and so much this is uncertain, so much is uncertain, that Aperia was semitic.


Did you read his book about the tomb? Unfortunately, I never had a copy, so I cannot speculate on all his conclusions and their bases.

SidneyF wrote:
There are only two--"Haya" and "Maia"--or Hwy and MayA", both of which are written with /y/ in Egyptian and not /i/. Those two letters were not the same at all.
You seem to be confusing /i/ with /y/.


Quote:
i is M17 single, y is M17 double. So this are quite similar and related signs. There are many words in thesaurus, which are sometimes spelled with M17 single and sometimes M17 double, include even king names.


Such as? if you have Gardiner's Grammar, did you read paragraph 20 on page 29? There you see that /i/ is many times in Egyptian like alif--such as in the word "ink" or "I am". So it's also good for "iA" or "el", which is written with alif in Semitic. Double /i/ or /ii/ is as in "mry". /y/ is never like an alif in Egyptian. In group writing, /ii/ is used to write Semitic words that begin with a "y" sound.


SidneyF wrote:
Sometimes they did take Egyptian names--sometimes not.


Quote:
Thats correct. But never a MIXTURE Name.


Then what are these? They are from Hoch's book, which I already cited, page 63-64:

apr-bar [Aper-Baal] Name List {Dyn. 18]
apr- rSpw [Aper-Reshef] Tutankhamun Docket
apr-bay [? possibly Aper-Baal] Bologna 1094, 10, 3 [Dyn. 19]
apr-dgAir [Aper-Dagael] Anastasi III vs. 6, 8, [Dyn. 19]

Hoch goes on to say it means the same as "abdi" or "servant" and that the New Kingdom writing may be more "of a histpric than phonetic writing" because names with apr "occur as early as the Middle Kingdom".
So you are not correct and need to study this more.


SidneyF wrote:
What about Bay? He was a chancellor. What about Ay--who became a king? What kind of an Egyptian names are those? In fact, the name of Ay is clearly written in group writing--which is for foreign names.


Quote:
Bay: Most scolars agree, that is an egypt name for a person with syrian origins.
Ay: ? What do you mean? You really want to say, that Ay is semitic? I never heard that in any science book! (There was a first Ay in older times before, also sure egyptian).


How do you know? Yes, there was Meryneferra Ay of the 13th Dynasty, but the Dodsons say [page 106 of "The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt"] "There is no certain links between the Sobekhoteps and the next kings for whom we have evidence of their affiliation." They say that "Aya was common among the governors of El-Kab, who had been related by marriage to Queen Nubkhaes". Well, maybe, but the name of Nubkhaes means something in the Egyptian language whereas the names Aya and Ini do not. So they can certainly be foreign names just like Khendjer of the same dynasty.

SidneyF wrote:
The name "el" had two uses. There was the god El of the Canaanites, Amorites, those of Ugarit, and he was the chief of the gods. But "el" could mean just "god", too--any god--and "elim" is the plural. Therefore, "el" could be the equivalent of the Egyptian word "nTr".



Quote:
2. The generally "El" for god is escpecially used in the later languages (hebrew is, like most scolars think, originated about 1000 BC - in Aperias time not available).


I see. Then why does the Israel Stela of Merneptah say "the princes are prostrate, saying "Shalom". Laughing If there was a people called "Israel", which you have already acknowledged, then what was their language? Hebrew did not come from outer space suddenly in 1,000 BC. All the West Semitic languages were nearly the same. [and they don't include Arabic]

Quote:
So in Aperias time El would have meant the canaanite god El.


Probably.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mykerinos
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 04 Aug 2012
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]
[quote]
Because it was! Did I not give you the examples from Hoch of the 18th Dynasty where 'iA" can only represent "el"? Hoch wrote that /n/+/r/ was not used very often for Semitic "l" and mostly /r/ was used. I, myself, only know the names bAk-wr-nr" from the Papyrus Abbott and bAkt-wr-nr [fem.] from a tomb.[/quote]

So you say, that l is in 17. + 19. Dyn only r, but in 18. Dyn. sometime r and sometimes n+r and also ia ^^. Thats nonsense in my opinion.
bAket-wr-nr is real egypt, i cant see a semitic element in this name. Therefore nr can not state for el.
For this opionion there a too less evidences.

[quote="SidneyF"]I have not done a survey of the children of the kap, but I have not seen any evidence thus far that Egyptian children were involved. Can you prove that Aper-el was not a foreigner?[/quote]

1. Have i to prove every owner of an egyptian tomb, that he is not a foreigner??
2. You have to prove that he is a foreigner, if you say this.
3. Yes, i can prove it. He has an egypt tomb, with egypt paintings, a egypt position in the egypt state, a egypt name, egypt family, was a priest of an egypt god ......................
other side: NO - not one! - evidence for a semitic origin.

[quote]Did you read his book about the tomb? Unfortunately, I never had a copy, so I cannot speculate on all his conclusions and their bases.[/quote]

Yes, i did. I read all his books (only 2 books in 30 years - one french, one english). AND i read all his articles. There are NO evidences - none in his books, none in his articles! - Try it!

[quote]Such as? if you have Gardiner's Grammar, did you read paragraph 20 on page 29? There you see that /i/ is many times in Egyptian like alif--such as in the word "ink" or "I am". So it's also good for "iA" or "el", which is written with alif in Semitic. Double /i/ or /ii/ is as in "mry". /y/ is never like an alif in Egyptian. In group writing, /ii/ is used to write Semitic words that begin with a "y" sound.[/quote]

I can suggest to you to read Ahituv "canaanite toponyms" (1984, quite more actual than the books, you prefer ...). There are many semitic toponyms with M17 single or M17 double - some who are known with Ya-, some with Ja-, some with Ha-, some with A-, some with Ah-. But NO one with El. The writings of the toponyms are often different, but "l" is every time with "r".
The M17 (single or double) is very often in semitic toponyms, but we know not so many towns with "El". You can learn much in this book about the egypt handling with semitic names. And toponyms are in use for longer times as person-names, so i think the using in toponyms are the important for learning about them.

[quote="SidneyF"]Then what are these? They are from Hoch's book, which I already cited, page 63-64:

apr-bar [Aper-Baal] Name List {Dyn. 18]
apr- rSpw [Aper-Reshef] Tutankhamun Docket
apr-bay [? possibly Aper-Baal] Bologna 1094, 10, 3 [Dyn. 19]
apr-dgAir [Aper-Dagael] Anastasi III vs. 6, 8, [Dyn. 19][/quote]

Baal and Reschef were integrated in the egypt religion during/after the hyksos period. Therefore this names went also egyptian.
The last one i dont know, so i cant say anything about that.


[quote="SidneyF"]Hoch goes on to say it means the same as "abdi" or "servant" and that the New Kingdom writing may be more "of a histpric than phonetic writing" because names with apr "occur as early as the Middle Kingdom".
So you are not correct and need to study this more.[/quote]

But Aper is clearly egypt and Abdi is clearly semitic. PERHAPS Aper is the translation for Abdi (but this is not clear, many scolars dont believe this), nothing more. Names with Aper are egypt, Names with Adbi are semitic. Whats so difficult to understand that?

Egypt Names with "Aper-" are known from the earliest times (2. Dyn), and the owner often are officials ore priests in Memphis. If you say, that aper would be semitic, there would have been semitic priests (for egypt gods) in Memphis vor 2000 years - thats unbelievable!

[quote="SidneyF"]How do you know? Yes, there was Meryneferra Ay of the 13th Dynasty, but the Dodsons say [page 106 of "The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt"] "There is no certain links between the Sobekhoteps and the next kings for whom we have evidence of their affiliation." They say that "Aya was common among the governors of El-Kab, who had been related by marriage to Queen Nubkhaes". Well, maybe, but the name of Nubkhaes means something in the Egyptian language whereas the names Aya and Ini do not. So they can certainly be foreign names just like Khendjer of the same dynasty. [/quote]

How many persons you want to make foreign furthermore??

We know some semitic persons in the official court and some semitic kings (the hyksos); they are all really simple to identify as semtics. The same for lybians and nubians. So there is no reason to identify people as foreign, when there are NO evidences for such an origin.

[quote="SidneyF"] I see. Then why does the Israel Stela of Merneptah say "the princes are prostrate, saying "Shalom". :lol: If there was a people called "Israel", which you have already acknowledged, then what was their language? Hebrew did not come from outer space suddenly in 1,000 BC. All the West Semitic languages were nearly the same. [and they don't include Arabic][/quote]

And?
1. Salem is old semitic, long before hebrew rose up. Think of the town Salem/Uru-salim/Jerusalem.
2. Before 1200 BC the language was west-semitic, call it canaanite or ugaritic or amorite ... But the hebrew came as a west-semitic dialect AFTER 1200 BC. (There are no archeological evidences for the hebrew language before 800 BC!).

El was a deity till ~1200 BC, he was the highest canaanite god. After 1200 BC the religion changed, El went down and Baal became the highest canaanite god. So "El" was free for getting a generally word (for god) AFTER that, special in the hebrew language about 1000 / 800 BC.

It is unthinkable, that the hebrew made "El" for their word for "god" in the same time, El is still woreshipped (he would have been an enimy for Jahwe!).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SidneyF
Banned


Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="Mykerinos"][quote="SidneyF"]
Quote:
So you say, that l is in 17. + 19. Dyn only r, but in 18. Dyn. sometime r and sometimes n+r and also ia ^^. Thats nonsense in my opinion. bAket-wr-nr is real egypt, i cant see a semitic element in this name. Therefore nr can not state for el. For this opionion there a too less evidences.


You are really misquoting me but I think it's very safe to say that, in the New Kingdom, group writing or syllabic orthography was hardly uniform.
Very well, since you are so sure of what is Egyptian [not "Egypt", for that merely refers to the land]--tell us what "bAkt-wr-nr" means in the Egyptian language. An Egyptian name must be a complete phrase when it is not a nickname.

SidneyF wrote:
I have not done a survey of the children of the kap, but I have not seen any evidence thus far that Egyptian children were involved. Can you prove that Aper-el was not a foreigner?


Quote:
1. Have i to prove every owner of an egyptian tomb, that he is not a foreigner??


Actually, the burden of proof is squarely upon you in the case of a person who clearly [even if you don't believe it] has a name that contains a foreign god [El] and is a child of the kap, besides. Everything points to that man being a foreigner and whether or not he had a tomb in Egypt has nothing to do with anything. What do you think foreigners were supposed to do--just jump in the river? A tomb indicates nothing more than a belief in an afterlife and somebody wanted the family of Aperel to live forever. In fact, it says in the tomb that it came from the generosity of the king--and they all did. Tombs were rewards for good service.


Quote:
Such as? if you have Gardiner's Grammar, did you read paragraph 20 on page 29? There you see that /i/ is many times in Egyptian like alif--such as in the word "ink" or "I am". So it's also good for "iA" or "el", which is written with alif in Semitic. Double /i/ or /ii/ is as in "mry". /y/ is never like an alif in Egyptian. In group writing, /ii/ is used to write Semitic words that begin with a "y" sound.


Quote:
I can suggest to you to read Ahituv "canaanite toponyms" (1984, quite more actual than the books, you prefer ...). There are many semitic toponyms with M17 single or M17 double - some who are known with Ya-, some with Ja-, some with Ha-, some with A-, some with Ah-. But NO one with El. The writings of the toponyms are often different, but "l" is every time with "r". The M17 (single or double) is very often in semitic toponyms, but we know not so many towns with "El". You can learn much in this book about the egypt handling with semitic names. And toponyms are in use for longer times as person-names, so i think the using in toponyms are the important for learning about them.


I doubt that Hoch is missing anything. And there isn't much point in just repeating what I have already written.

SidneyF wrote:
Then what are these? They are from Hoch's book, which I already cited, page 63-64:

apr-bar [Aper-Baal] Name List {Dyn. 18]
apr- rSpw [Aper-Reshef] Tutankhamun Docket
apr-bay [? possibly Aper-Baal] Bologna 1094, 10, 3 [Dyn. 19]
apr-dgAir [Aper-Dagael] Anastasi III vs. 6, 8, [Dyn. 19]


Quote:
Baal and Reschef were integrated in the egypt religion during/after the hyksos period. Therefore this names went also egyptian.
The last one i dont know, so i cant say anything about that.
Quote:


Well, now you have changed your tune! Previously, you were convinced there was no such thing as apr + a foreign god--but now you think differently because Baal and Reshef were "integrated" into the Egyptian belief system! They're still not gods that originated in Egypt and, therefore, you also do not have any clear idea to what extent the worship of El was "integrated". There was another foreign dynasty in Egypt other than the 15th Dynasty Hyksos and that was the 16th Dynasty. How do you know who was their chief god?


Quote:
Egypt Names with "Aper-" are known from the earliest times (2. Dyn), and the owner often are officials ore priests in Memphis.


Really? Please give some examples of such names.

Quote:
If you say, that aper would be semitic, there would have been semitic priests (for egypt gods) in Memphis vor 2000 years - thats unbelievable!


I did not say "apr" was Semitic.

[quote="SidneyF"]How do you know? Yes, there was Meryneferra Ay of the 13th Dynasty, but the Dodsons say [page 106 of "The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt"] "There is no certain links between the Sobekhoteps and the next kings for whom we have evidence of their affiliation." They say that "Aya was common among the governors of El-Kab, who had been related by marriage to Queen Nubkhaes". Well, maybe, but the name of Nubkhaes means something in the Egyptian language whereas the names Aya and Ini do not. So they can certainly be foreign names just like Khendjer of the same dynasty.


Quote:
How many persons you want to make foreign furthermore??


As many as are indicated.


Quote:
We know some semitic persons in the official court and some semitic kings (the hyksos); they are all really simple to identify as semtics. The same for lybians and nubians. So there is no reason to identify people as foreign, when there are NO evidences for such an origin.


Your disbelief doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the reality of the situation.

[quote="SidneyF"] I see. Then why does the Israel Stela of Merneptah say "the princes are prostrate, saying "Shalom". Laughing If there was a people called "Israel", which you have already acknowledged, then what was their language? Hebrew did not come from outer space suddenly in 1,000 BC. All the West Semitic languages were nearly the same. [and they don't include Arabic]


Quote:
And?
1. Salem is old semitic, long before hebrew rose up. Think of the town Salem/Uru-salim/Jerusalem.
2. Before 1200 BC the language was west-semitic, call it canaanite or ugaritic or amorite ... But the hebrew came as a west-semitic dialect AFTER 1200 BC. (There are no archeological evidences for the hebrew language before 800 BC!).


I doubt this last is true--but why would there have to be anything before 1000 BC? There weren't any annals until the Kingdom of Israel was established and nomads don't use writing. The old Hebrew alphabet is hardly distinguishable from the Phoenician--nor was the language these people spoke which was--once again--West Semitic. Do you want to say the Philistines didn't speak at all just because they left nothing in writing? When the Children of Israel left Egypt, they spoke Egyptian or their own language, depending upon how long the individuals had actually been in Egypt. When they came into Canaan to live they adopted the West Semitic dialect. It's as simple as that. I would like some answers to my questions, as I have attempted to answer yours. If you don't supply them and just keep on negating my answers, I see no more purpose in discussing this with you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
<..> a person who clearly [even if you don't believe it] has a name that contains a foreign god [El] and is a child of the kap, besides. Everything points to that man being a foreigner and whether or not he had a tomb in Egypt has nothing to do with anything.


I really think you are rather overstating the facts here. I did a quick scholarly search and the man is referred to as Aperia and Aperel in the literature.

Geoffrey T. Martin in a review of Zivie's book in 1994 mention's Zivie's theory that Aperel/Aperia could have been semitic, but mentions that A's family members have very Egyptian names. Martin mentions that it would take a study of the remains of the vizier to shed any light on this issue.
Martin also cautions against drawing too far reaching conclusions even after considering the physical remains There may have been many people of semitic origin living in Egypt at that time. So he could have been of an Egyptianized family with Semitic heritage.
(From: Découverte à Saqqarah: le vizir oublié by Alain Zivie; Review by: Geoffrey T. Martin; The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology , Vol. 80, (1994), pp. 251-253 )


So my impression is that we have a man with a name where one version appears Semitic, but with no immediate evidence of his background.

The practical consideration that putting a foreigner in the a position of such power as a Vizier seems to stretch plausibility a bit (to me). That his family seems to have thoroughly Egyptian names would suggest to me that the man could have come from an Egyptianized Semitic family. But it is equally possible he just happens to have had a more exotic name.

Ramesses' daughter Bintanath has a theosophic name referring to the Semitic goddess Anath. Yet no one would argue she was a foreigner. So name alone seems a rather weak case to me.

This is not a clear cut case, and the burden of proof is on anyone making a definitive statement. If you claim he was a foreigner you would need to show why. If you claim he is not, you need to argue why.

It seems to me that we just do not have enough information. The kap is not understood well enough to base any far reaching conclusions on, and a name is not enough to declare ethnicity either.

I gather Strouhal would have looked at Aper-el/Aperia's mummy. I do not know what the conclusions are (if any) with respect to the question of where A was from.

I see nothing "obvious" about this case whatsoever.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4060
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
... I gather Strouhal would have looked at Aper-el/Aperia's mummy. I do not know what the conclusions are (if any) with respect to the question of where A was from. ...

Eugene Strouhal : L'étude anthropologique et paléopathologique des restes du vizir Aper-El et de sa famille - premiers résultats. - In: Bulletin de la Société Française d'Egyptologie - BSFE 126. - 1993. - pp. 24 - 37.

See also : Egyptian Dreams ---> Pyramids, Tombs, & Monuments ---> Aper-El and Mayet .

Greetings, Lutz.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 4060
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also ...

Roger Lichtenberg : La radiographie des ossements retrouvés dans la chambre funéraire du vizir 'Aper-El. - In: BSFE 126. - 1993. - pp. 38 - 43.

AEB 93.0999 wrote:
Report on the radiological examination of the remains of the vizier 'Aper-El and his family. The results agree with Strouhal's conclusions. The most striking fact is the presence of osteoporosis in 'Aper-El's skeleton, which is a rare phenomenon in men.

Greetings, Lutz.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mykerinos
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 04 Aug 2012
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]You are really misquoting me but I think it's very safe to say that, in the New Kingdom, group writing or syllabic orthography was hardly uniform.
Very well, since you are so sure of what is Egyptian [not "Egypt", for that merely refers to the land]--tell us what "bAkt-wr-nr" means in the Egyptian language. An Egyptian name must be a complete phrase when it is not a nickname. [/quote]

1. One single (other) name is not very meaningful for discussing generally semitic elements in egyptian language (As i told you above, its more useful to study the toponyms...).
2. For I dont know the name you give, i need a source and the hierogl. signs for bAkt-wr-nr. Than i can try it.

[quote="SidneyF"]Actually, the burden of proof is squarely upon you in the case of a person who clearly [even if you don't believe it] has a name that contains a foreign god [El] and is a child of the kap, besides. [b]Everything[/b] points to that man being a foreigner and whether or not he had a tomb in Egypt has nothing to do with anything. What do you think foreigners were supposed to do--just jump in the river? A tomb indicates nothing more than a belief in an afterlife and somebody wanted the family of Aperel to live forever. In fact, it says in the tomb that it came from the generosity of the king--and they all did. Tombs were rewards for good service.[/quote]

1. EVERYTHING you say - lol! There is ONLY the transcription and translation of the name (suggested by zivie, in last years often cited by other authors uncritically), but not ONE really evidence.
2. How can i prove, that a fact dont exist? I can only refer to all the egypt-like knowledge about aperia (tomb, family, inscription etc. etc.). This one, who suggest that he was a foreign has to prove this.
3. Why are you so sure, if you dont have read Zivies Publications? Read it! And tell me, what evidences you see further more!

[quote]Well, now you have changed your tune! Previously, you were convinced there was no such thing as apr + a foreign god--but now you think differently because Baal and Reshef were "integrated" into the Egyptian belief system! They're still not gods that originated in Egypt and, therefore, you also do not have any clear idea to what extent the worship of El was "integrated". There was another foreign dynasty in Egypt other than the 15th Dynasty Hyksos and that was the 16th Dynasty. How do you know who was their chief god? [/quote]

1. Im not changing. Read exactly what i wrote above. Baal and Reschef ware gods, which are integreted in the egyptian pantheon. So they were egypt gods in egypt after that. El was not integrated (as we know till now).
You must make difference between semitic gods, which are only refered in Egypt, which are equated, and which are transformed/imported INTO the egyptian relgion.
Aper + (egyptianized semitic deity) = possible
Aper + (not egypthianized semitc deity) = impossible (would have perhaps the name Abdi + deity).
2. 16th Dynasty is very unclear, and some "pharaos" of this Dyn. could be only south-canaanite rulers, like some scolars prefer. And there are no names with "El" included, so why i should supposed, that their cheif god could have been El? Another time you speculate something without any evidence.
Baal and Reschef were known as imported gods from many evidences (for ex. hints of temples of them in northern egypt; naming them in prayers, lists etc. together with egypt gods ...). For El there is NOT ONE such an evidence.

[quote]Really? Please give some examples of such names. [/quote]

For example Ma-Aper-Min (2./3. Dyn.)
Ka-Aper (4./5. Dyn.)
See more in name-dict. like Ranke "Personennamen" etc.
(The Aper is sign AA20 Gardiner-List. You can also search the sign in Thesaurus Aeg.)

[quote]I did not say "apr" was Semitic. [/quote]

I know. You say, Apr is egyptian, El is semitic, and Aperia s name would be Aper-El - and that would mean a mixture name (eg-sem.). And that is, what i disagree.

[quote="SidneyF"]
How many persons you want to make foreign furthermore?? [/quote]
[quote]As many as are indicated.[/quote]

^^. No comment!

[quote="SidneyF"]I doubt this last is true--but why would there have to be anything before 1000 BC? There weren't any annals until the Kingdom of Israel was established and nomads don't use writing. The old Hebrew alphabet is hardly distinguishable from the Phoenician--nor was the language these people spoke which was--once again--West Semitic. Do you want to say the Philistines didn't speak at all just because they left nothing in writing? When the Children of Israel left Egypt, they spoke Egyptian or their own language, depending upon how long the individuals had actually been in Egypt. When they came into Canaan to live they adopted the West Semitic dialect. It's as simple as that. I would like some answers to my questions, as I have attempted to answer yours. If you don't supply them and just keep on negating my answers,[/quote]

1. If there were Children of Israel in Egypt, this is very unclear (-> Finkelstein/Silberman), but if, than they spoke west-semitic canaanite or egyptian language, but not Hebrew. For Hebrew it is very clear, that this west-semitic-dialect is established not before 800/1000 BC.
If you mean, the language Hebrew is older, than bring evidences about that. You often state things without bringing evidences. Thats not a good science way.

[quote="SidneyF"]I see no more purpose in discussing this with you.[/quote]

I think, this is the first time we agree 8)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mykerinos
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 04 Aug 2012
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: ! Reply with quote

[quote="anneke"]I really think you are rather overstating the facts here.
So my impression is that we have a man with a name where one version appears Semitic, but with no immediate evidence of his background.
If you claim he was a foreigner you would need to show why. If you claim he is not, you need to argue why
[/quote]

Thank you very much, dear anneke! That are the things, i wanted to point out. And thanks for the reference to martins book-review, i didnt know that yet. Unfortunatly his critical view has been forgotten in many egyptological books!

[quote="anneke"]But it is equally possible he just happens to have had a more exotic name.[/quote]

One remark: His name is not exotic. His name is Aa20+D21+Y1+M17+G1.
All the elements are often finded in egyptian names. Aa20 is a very specific sign; in words it means "equipement". In Names it is only refered in the region Memphis/Saqqara. But there in the whole time, from 2. dyn. to late periods.

Perhaps the new science get the change: At the Page of the Imhotep Museum there is the name "Aper-El" not longer mentioned. They write the correct form Aperia (Link:http://www.sca-egypt.org/eng/MUS_Imhotep_Museum.htm).

Also important: In his tomb Aperia is pictured: His colour is red. The egyptians took red only for egyptian persons.

Thank you Lutz for the posts. Unfortunately I can't read that at the moment - but i cannot imagine, that in that researches is anything found about Aperias ethnic origins. Right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SidneyF
Banned


Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="Mykerinos"]
SidneyF wrote:
You are really misquoting me but I think it's very safe to say that, in the New Kingdom, group writing or syllabic orthography was hardly uniform.
Very well, since you are so sure of what is Egyptian [not "Egypt", for that merely refers to the land]--tell us what "bAkt-wr-nr" means in the Egyptian language. An Egyptian name must be a complete phrase when it is not a nickname.


Quote:
1. One single (other) name is not very meaningful for discussing generally semitic elements in egyptian language (As i told you above, its more useful to study the toponyms...).
2. For I dont know the name you give, i need a source and the hierogl. signs for bAkt-wr-nr. Than i can try it.


It is attested twice that I know of. In masculine form in the Abbott Papyrus and the name of a queen. And it is not just "one other name". I gave you other names that contain "El", too, besides that of Aper-el. I have not seen where anybody disagrees bAk[t]-wr-nr contains the element "El". Here. You can see the glyphs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baketwernel

Quote:
Well, now you have changed your tune! Previously, you were convinced there was no such thing as apr + a foreign god--but now you think differently because Baal and Reshef were "integrated" into the Egyptian belief system! They're still not gods that originated in Egypt and, therefore, you also do not have any clear idea to what extent the worship of El was "integrated". There was another foreign dynasty in Egypt other than the 15th Dynasty Hyksos and that was the 16th Dynasty. How do you know who was their chief god?


Quote:
1. Im not changing. Read exactly what i wrote above. Baal and Reschef ware gods, which are integreted in the egyptian pantheon. So they were egypt gods in egypt after that. El was not integrated (as we know till now).
You must make difference between semitic gods, which are only refered in Egypt, which are equated, and which are transformed/imported INTO the egyptian relgion.


Regardless of whether "integrated" or not, there were people in Egypt whose names contained "El". Accept it because it won't go away.


Quote:
I did not say "apr" was Semitic.


Quote:
I know. You say, Apr is egyptian, El is semitic, and Aperia s name would be Aper-El - and that would mean a mixture name (eg-sem.). And that is, what i disagree.


What about "Aper-Baal"? The Egyptians, themselves, did not worship Baal. They worshipped Sutekh.

SidneyF wrote:
I doubt this last is true--but why would there have to be anything before 1000 BC? There weren't any annals until the Kingdom of Israel was established and nomads don't use writing. The old Hebrew alphabet is hardly distinguishable from the Phoenician--nor was the language these people spoke which was--once again--West Semitic. Do you want to say the Philistines didn't speak at all just because they left nothing in writing? When the Children of Israel left Egypt, they spoke Egyptian or their own language, depending upon how long the individuals had actually been in Egypt. When they came into Canaan to live they adopted the West Semitic dialect. It's as simple as that. I would like some answers to my questions, as I have attempted to answer yours. If you don't supply them and just keep on negating my answers,


Quote:
1. If there were Children of Israel in Egypt, this is very unclear (-> Finkelstein/Silberman)


And many more scholars don't question it. So your point is moot.

Quote:
but if, than they spoke west-semitic canaanite or egyptian language, but not Hebrew. For Hebrew it is very clear, that this west-semitic-dialect is established not before 800/1000 BC. If you mean, the language Hebrew is older, than bring evidences about that. You often state things without bringing evidences. Thats not a good science way.


Where is your proof that Hebrew as a dialect wasn't established until 800/1000 BC?? There is no proof. It's impossible to prove.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
anneke wrote:
... I gather Strouhal would have looked at Aper-el/Aperia's mummy. I do not know what the conclusions are (if any) with respect to the question of where A was from. ...

Eugene Strouhal : L'étude anthropologique et paléopathologique des restes du vizir Aper-El et de sa famille - premiers résultats. - In: Bulletin de la Société Française d'Egyptologie - BSFE 126. - 1993. - pp. 24 - 37.

See also : Egyptian Dreams ---> Pyramids, Tombs, & Monuments ---> Aper-El and Mayet .

Greetings, Lutz.


Thanks for this (and the other) article. I do not have a copy of this article. My impression is that the study focused more on age? Being 50-60 years old at the time of his death, he may have been born during the reign of Tuthmosis IV? Or even towards the end of Amenhotep II's reign?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: ! Reply with quote

Mykerinos wrote:
<..> And thanks for the reference to martins book-review, i didnt know that yet. Unfortunatly his critical view has been forgotten in many egyptological books!

You are welcome.

It's an interesting issue. It would be quite an interesting part of history if the Northern Vizier of Egypt was of foreign background. My understanding is that the Northern Vizier was quite powerful and dealt with some of the foreign diplomacy. Having a foreign born courtier in would be a departure from the norm I think?

Mykerinos wrote:
anneke wrote:
But it is equally possible he just happens to have had a more exotic name.


One remark: His name is not exotic. His name is Aa20+D21+Y1+M17+G1.


Thanks for correcting me on that. But for as far as I know there is no other individual known as Aperia or Aperel known from the Archeological record is there?
Using JShesh the name Aperia is:
That looks like the name as I have seen it on the copy made by Petrie of an inscription in the tomb.

Do we know where the name Aper-el appears in the tomb?

Mykerinos wrote:
Perhaps the new science get the change: At the Page of the Imhotep Museum there is the name "Aper-El" not longer mentioned. They write the correct form Aperia (Link:http://www.sca-egypt.org/eng/MUS_Imhotep_Museum.htm).

In two fieldreports (1999-2000 and 2001-2002) the name Aperia is used. In a recent publication of Manassa (I think 2006 if I remember correctly) there is still mention of the name Aper-el. I cannot tell if there is a concensus among Egyptologists.

Too bad there are no other known inscriptions related to Aperia/Aperel known to us. Sometimes individuals would mention the name followed by . "son of ..." or "born of ..". That would tell us a lot.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mykerinos
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 04 Aug 2012
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="SidneyF"]It is attested twice that I know of. In masculine form in the Abbott Papyrus and the name of a queen. And it is not just "one other name". I gave you other names that contain "El", too, besides that of Aper-el. I have not seen where anybody disagrees bAk[t]-wr-nr contains the element "El". Here. You can see the glyphs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baketwernel [quote]

Okay, now i see which person you mean. We dont know much about this bakt-wr-nr. She is perhaps wife of amenmesse (early opinion) or ramesse IX (later opinion). So we dont know exactly, if she was a egpt person or a foreign person. The last signs D21+Z1 can be "el" or can be "re". But the signs before refers to a complete meaning "N35+Z2+D21+Z1". This 4 signs are very often found in egyptian person namens (see Ranke "Personennamen", see thesaurus ling. aeg. with search for this 4 signs exactly), only in this 1 case there is a transcription with "l" suggested; in all the other cases (many!) the transcription is "nur(e)".
So i favorite, that B. is an egyptian person with an egyptian name (ending nur/e). If she would have been semitic, it could be, that her name ends -el, but than the other elements of her name must also transcripted semitic. But i dont know a semtic female name, which it could be. So i prefer her to see only egyptian.

You must see: There was a time in the early egyptologic, where scolars was searching for bible history. And as they found "D21+Z1" as -re = -el they stated for a short time EVERY D21+Z1 as El. But that was a mistake. The knowledge of the egyptian language went up. And today digital wordbooks give us new possiblities to research. Use it, than you can see the early mistakes, which are unfortunately often cited while using old books.

[quote]Regardless of whether "integrated" or not, there were people in Egypt whose names contained "El". Accept it because it won't go away.[/quote]

Yes, there are people in egypt whose names contained "El" - but only semitic people with semitic names. No, there are no egyptian names with "El". This is different.
Egypt name = no El in it
Semitic name = El can be in it
(whereever the people stay, went or are burried)

[quote]What about "Aper-Baal"? The Egyptians, themselves, did not worship Baal. They worshipped Sutekh.[/quote]

One more time: Baal was imported, El was not imported.
Some egyptians get Seth and Baal equal. But in northern Egypt we have also hints, that the woreshipping of Baal was a own cult (but egyptian). Espacially in the hyksos periode, but there are also texts from ramesside time, in which Baal and Seth are refered both for its own. Therefore (the egyptian word) Aper could be together with the (egyptianized god) Baal.

[quote] And many more scholars don't question it. So your point is moot.[/quote]

?? Which scholars you mean? Bible-Prayers?

We know nothing about israelite people in egypt. There are no archaelogical evidences found about them. A great nation, millions of people, as the bible, exodus, state, would have left archaeological references.

[quote]Where is your proof that Hebrew as a dialect wasn't established until 800/1000 BC?? There is no proof. It's impossible to prove.[/quote]

One more time you ask for proof for the things, that not exist. You must learn the other way in science: Proofs can only get for things, which exist.

The earliest hebrew scipture findings date from about 700 BC. From the whole time in the 1000 years BC there are very few findings. Therefore all scolars agree (even the theological!) that Hebrew is originated about 800/1000 BC as a west-semitic dialect from the canaanite.

If the Hebrew would have been originated in Egypt, as you say, and if the "Children of Isreal" lived there for 400 years, as the bible say, than the hebrew language would have many influences from the egyptian language. But thats not the case.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
<..> I have not seen where anybody disagrees bAk[t]-wr-nr contains the element "El". Here. You can see the glyphs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baketwernel



I am a bit confused by this argument. I have never seen anyone (besides you here) argue that Baketwerel (Baketwerner) refers to "El"

The name is also attested for a daughter of the courtier Nakhtmin, and that lady is very Egyptian. She is the daughter of the first stablemaster of His Majesty Nakhtmin and his wife Tanedjemet. Minnakht in turn is the son of the Captain of troops and Governor of the South Lands Pennesutawy and his wife Maia.

Pennesutawy is the son of Minhotep and Maia and the brother of the High Priest of Amun Parennefer (also called Wennefer) from the end of the 18th dynasty.

So even if there is a name "el" in there this has no bearing whatsoever on the ethnicity of the individual. As this woman is at least 4th generation (and likely more) Egyptian.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mykerinos
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 04 Aug 2012
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: ! Reply with quote

[quote="anneke"]It's an interesting issue. It would be quite an interesting part of history if the Northern Vizier of Egypt was of foreign background. My understanding is that the Northern Vizier was quite powerful and dealt with some of the foreign diplomacy. Having a foreign born courtier in would be a departure from the norm I think? [/quote]

There are some periods in the egyptian history, in which it seems possible. But in the 18. and 19. dynastie i dont believe in that. See: After the hyksos periode the kings of 18. + 19. dyn. often give inscriptions their dislike for asiatic people. Official documents often refers to the "time of chaos". So as they alltimes remember of the foreign occupation of their land, i dont believe, that there could be a foreign vizier in the 18. or 19. dynastie.
Foreigns could get higher positions in the egyptian state, yes, for they were useful for diplomatic or other works. But not vezir.
I think, that some people wish such like that, because they want to get the joseph-episode in the bible more belivable. It is remarkable, that Zivie only one time make an article about the name "Aper-El", and that was for a bible-school in jerusalem (!). (But even in this article he dont bring any evidence for his transcription/translation).

[quote="anneke"]Thanks for correcting me on that. But for as far as I know there is no other individual known as Aperia or Aperel known from the Archeological record is there?.[/quote]

Ranke (PN) and Schneider (PN) list a second source of that name, in a quarry near Cairo. It can be the same Aperia (time and region seams to be the same), but thats not sure.

The combination Aa20+D21+Y1 is possibly the writing in the 18.-20. Dyn. for a name-element with only Aa20 in times before. D21 seems to be a (complementary? dont know the expression in english), Y1 can be determinative. Names with Aa20 are quite often in the region memphis/saqqara. That the writing of a name changed from old times to new kingdom is very normal.

[quote="anneke"]That looks like the name as I have seen it on the copy made by Petrie of an inscription in the tomb.[/quote]

Can you give me an exactly source for that? I would be VERY interested in that, because Petrie was death till 35 years, as Zivie discovered the tomp of Aperia ;-)

The tomb of Aperia apply to be undiscovered/unopened since his son was burried in the family tomb, as Zivie state.

[quote="anneke"]Do we know where the name Aper-el appears in the tomb? [/quote]

Zivie gives a few findings (wall and pillar). It is important to know exactly? Than i must look for the Books and articles from Zivie. (But i can say from my mind: There weren't any pictures of his names in Zivies Publications). If someone visit Saqqara next time - i would be very interested in getting Photos of the tomb, and specially the name-hieroglyphs.

[quote="anneke"]Too bad there are no other known inscriptions related to Aperia/Aperel known to us. Sometimes individuals would mention the name followed by . "son of ..." or "born of ..". That would tell us a lot.[/quote]

Yes, surely. And thats why i'm wondering about the whole case. As Aperia was sure a Aten-Priest in Memphis, it is quite sure, that he was in work during the Akhenaten-period. Amarna is a very good safed city, which only was used in this period. Therefore we know nearly all important people from Akhenatens court. But not a single mention about Aperia was left in Amarna - why?

Zivie justify his claiming, that Aperia was vezir, mainly with the clothings of Aperia in the wall-paintings of his tomb. In fact, the clothings are so. But could it has another explanation? I dont know.

The second important tradition of this time are the Amarna letters. They are written in cuneiform and akkadic. If Aperia was the northern vezir, he would have had to do with the things going on in canaan - and he would have been mentioned in the Amarna Letters. But there is no name in the direction of Aper-El. Moran gives a translation of a name "Api" as a egyptian official, but he refers that name for the egyptian goddes "(H)Api". This is perhaps not sure, because in accadic the god-names are not so clear to identify.
Moran also refers many names with "Abdi+(deity)", that are all semitic names. Sometimes they have positions in the egyptian court (mostly as diplomatics in or to canaan). But there is no Abdi-El. There is also no Aper+semtic god.
If Aperia would be "Aper-El" and would have been semitic, than we would identify him clearly in the amarna letters, as they are written in semitic. That he is not clearly identified, is an evidence, that his name perhaps was a problem for the semitic rulers to write (they had to translate or transcripe him in accadic words, therefore his name was egyptian.).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SidneyF
Banned


Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 431

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Wondering... Reply with quote

[quote="anneke"]
SidneyF wrote:
<..> I have not seen where anybody disagrees bAk[t]-wr-nr contains the element "El". Here. You can see the glyphs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baketwernel



Quote:
I am a bit confused by this argument. I have never seen anyone (besides you here) argue that Baketwerel (Baketwerner) refers to "El"


Then I leave it to you or Mykerinos to explain what (Baketwerner) means in Egyptian.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group