Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Egypt's Capitalist Prophet?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Egypt's Capitalist Prophet? Reply with quote

A great deal has been written in this section of the forum, and it hasn’t been possible for me to look into everything, but as far as I know, no one has wondered about this here before.

In Akhenaten – Egypt’s False Prophet (2001, rev. 2005) Nicholas Reeves, in a subsection of Ch. 6 on the Central City of Akhetaten, includes the following words within an extract from Amarna Letter EA 16:

‘If staying out in the sun means profit for [pharaoh], then let [the messenger] stay out and let him die right there in the sun – but for [pharaoh] himself there must be a profit.’

The word ‘profit’ is used twice, but what was (or were) the original Akkadian word (or words)? How would it have been translated into NK Egyptian, and what exactly did it mean? Did it mean simply ‘advantage’, or was it perhaps used to indicate economic gain from returns over outlay in the context of commodity exchange?

There are some very well-informed people out there. Thanks for reading this, and for any light anyone can shed on the matter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W.Moran EA16 n.1 : The reading of the name is uncertain. If Gordon reading correct, then only the praenomen of A˙ seems comparable.

Profit in this text should be understood as motivation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
Profit in this text should be understood as motivation.

Dito. Whereas for Akhenaten it was a showing of his nature as a sun-god, it wasn't so respectful towards the foreign ambassadors to be put on hold under the burning rays of the Aten, while the King himself resided under a balcony during their meetings. Ashuruballit of Assyria was trying to get the same respect his other "Brothers" from Hatti etc. were given. So he had to assert he did not like the treatment of a King "lesser" than the Pharaoh. As all other Kings' envoys (probably) received the same treatment though, it was only smart to add that there at least had to be a good reason for the manner of their "welcome". If not expecting to see a change in treatment, at least the Pharaoh might explain himself - which could be viewed as an excuse and therefore as an act between equals.

In addition to Gerard's mentioning of the Amarna Letters by Moran, I'd strongly advice trying to get hold of a copy of Amarna Diplomacy by Cohen & Westbrook: standard stuff.
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the fast responses! As I understand it, you both feel that a clearer translation would be:

‘If staying out in the sun incurs advantage for [pharaoh], then let [the messenger] stay out and let him die right there in the sun – but for [pharaoh] himself there must be a good reason.’
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Segereh
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 2934
Location: Bruges

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the translation from Moran and Murnane is more accurate towards the original text.
But how you've put it, is how I think it should indeed be interpreted.
_________________
"Leave him in error who loves his error."
"Learn politeness from the impolite."

Feel free to visit my site in construction:
-- www.enks.net --
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Chapter Two of Cohen and Westbrook’s Amarna Diplomacy (2000/2002):

Mario Liverani wrote:
It has been noted that in pre-monetary societies, delay in countergifts (or counterprestations) fulfils a function analogous in financial terms to interest on capital. (Sahlins, “Exchange Value,” 112, 118)

I find this deeply interesting, but I’m not sure I fully understand the analogy. Would anyone like to comment on it?

Idea
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On page 24 (2000), Liverani wrote what could be the answer you are looking for :Delay is, in fact, used to negociate more favorable terms of exchange. If this is not the case, I'm afraid one would have to read Sahlins' book.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
Liverani wrote:
Delay is, in fact, used to negociate more favorable terms of exchange.

So he keeps them waiting out in the sun in order to make a percentage?
Interesting...
Think
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, you seem mixing facts and terms. There is nowhere a question of percentage ! EA16 is from Assyria, a newcomer and further more a vassal of Babylonia. Akhenaten had to think how to respond, and this take time; as a matter of fact, in EA 9, the king of Babylonia was not please with this assyrian contact : send them off to me empty-handed. Waiting under the sun is an image from someone living under the clouds, he meant doing nothing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just couldn’t resist the opportunity for a little provocative rhetoric! Twisted Evil

Point taken. Of course there is a difference between on-the-spot treatment of diplomats and the larger time-scale of international remittances.

However, I wonder if I can get agreement on the following arguments?

1. The ‘gifts’ mentioned in the Amarna correspondence were not really gifts as such, but primitive ‘balance of payments’ exchanges under a system distorted by the hegemony of the great powers.

2. Atenism was a progressive phenomenon in that it simplified ideological relations, gave much greater attention to industry and trade, and reduced the financial burden placed on the state by the established priesthoods.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. IMO gifts were goods exchange between kings as they are exchanged between relatives. The lack of education made some kings complained about the quality of the gifts.
2. "Atenism" being progressive is a matter of appreciation; as Breated put it, Monotheism is but imperialism in religion. Temples were producers of goods, when Akhenaten closed them, he certainly destabilized what you call industry. IMO the religious cost in a temple was minimum as few persons were concerned by religion itself.
"Atenism" temples need less manpower to build and to maintain than traditional temples; IMO this was the main difference in terms of cost.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Around the Mediterranean sea, many people enjoy endless bargaining; being in Greece, I guess you know that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard. wrote:
1. IMO gifts were goods exchange between kings as they are exchanged between relatives.

Raymond Westbrook (Amarna Diplomacy, 2000, Ch.3) goes to some lengths to show that this 'household' metaphor was indeed only a metaphor, and that it disguised quite fixed and formal diplomatic relations between states.

Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gerard.
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 492
Location: France

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amenhotep III was the son-in-law of the kings of Mitanni and Babylonia.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Khuy-n-inpw
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edward III of England was the grandson of Philip the Fair of France.

occasion9
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group