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rome or egypt
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Due to interest I've split the ongoing discussion about the miniseries Rome and placed it in it's own thread in the General Discussion forum. To continue that discussion click on the link below:

Rome, the Miniseries

There was too much already on the miniseries discussion so I've split off only the last few posts and am leaving the rest in place here. But further discussion in this particular thread should return to the topic of Rome vs. Egypt, if interest remains.

Thanks, everyone. Wink

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kendo1
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Quote:
There was one a roman who using the night sky somhhow calulated te earths circumfrinse and did it only n a few minnutes and was acurate withhen 800 miles

That was Erastosthenes of Cyrene (276 - 194 BC) and he was a North African (Libyan) scientist living in Alexandria Egypt. Cyrene didn't become a Roman colony until 74 BC, so this great scientist was definitely not Roman.
He was known for measuring the circumference of the earth. He did this by comparing the noon shadow at midsummer between Syene (now Aswan on the Nile in Egypt) and Alexandria.

Don't forget that Alexandria, Egypt, was the center of Science in those days. People from all over the Mediterranean area flocked to this city.

He is also known for inventing Erastosthenes Sieve, which is a method for creating a list of prime numbers.

I think you are still hugely underestimating what happened in Egypt. Finds do show that there is a long history of wisdom texts which were used in schools.

The Rhind and Moscow papyri show the knowledge the Egyptians had of mathematics. It is true that what they practiced was of a more experimental form and mathematics was not put on firmer theoretical foundations until Euclid made his contributions. And I have to say that when we turn to ancient scholars in science, then we more often than not turn to the Greeks. (I'm a mathematician and I can't think of any contributions by the Romans to mathematics for instance - I don't count Roman numerals as real math.)

And kmt-sesh is right in pointing out that you are comparing apples and oranges Wink
Then again you said that yourself as well.

Quote:
In the desert any thing u lay down has a 30 to 50 percent chance of lining up with some sort of astronomical figure. And so what if they knew aabout the night sky they sure didnt use it.

Nope. There is clear evidence of stellar alignment in temples such as at Elephantine.
The rock-cut tomb of Ramses II was aligned so that on the longest day a ray of light exactly hits the statues in the back of the temple. Funny thing is that when the engineers a couple of decades ago moved the temple to higher ground, they did not manage that same feat Very Happy
There is a well documented ritual called "the stretching of the cord". This was part of the rites involved when laying foundations for a temple. The rites involved the careful orientation of the temple by astronomical observation and measurement. So they most definitely used their knowledge of the night skies.

And no I'm not upset with you for saying what you think Smile
I really would just like to look at what you do like so much about the Romans. You still haven't told us....


and greek and roman scholars admit that egypt and nubia was more advanced thna rome anyway. greeks who visit nubia or wrote about said nubian science and medcine was more advanced than egypt.in morals,science egypt and nubia was more advanced than rome,
technology in nubia and india was more advanced too,and maybe in axum as well and libya.science in india was more advanced than rome.
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kendo1
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Quote:
There was one a roman who using the night sky somhhow calulated te earths circumfrinse and did it only n a few minnutes and was acurate withhen 800 miles

That was Erastosthenes of Cyrene (276 - 194 BC) and he was a North African (Libyan) scientist living in Alexandria Egypt. Cyrene didn't become a Roman colony until 74 BC, so this great scientist was definitely not Roman.
He was known for measuring the circumference of the earth. He did this by comparing the noon shadow at midsummer between Syene (now Aswan on the Nile in Egypt) and Alexandria.

Don't forget that Alexandria, Egypt, was the center of Science in those days. People from all over the Mediterranean area flocked to this city.

He is also known for inventing Erastosthenes Sieve, which is a method for creating a list of prime numbers.

I think you are still hugely underestimating what happened in Egypt. Finds do show that there is a long history of wisdom texts which were used in schools.

The Rhind and Moscow papyri show the knowledge the Egyptians had of mathematics. It is true that what they practiced was of a more experimental form and mathematics was not put on firmer theoretical foundations until Euclid made his contributions. And I have to say that when we turn to ancient scholars in science, then we more often than not turn to the Greeks. (I'm a mathematician and I can't think of any contributions by the Romans to mathematics for instance - I don't count Roman numerals as real math.)

And kmt-sesh is right in pointing out that you are comparing apples and oranges Wink
Then again you said that yourself as well.

Quote:
In the desert any thing u lay down has a 30 to 50 percent chance of lining up with some sort of astronomical figure. And so what if they knew aabout the night sky they sure didnt use it.

Nope. There is clear evidence of stellar alignment in temples such as at Elephantine.
The rock-cut tomb of Ramses II was aligned so that on the longest day a ray of light exactly hits the statues in the back of the temple. Funny thing is that when the engineers a couple of decades ago moved the temple to higher ground, they did not manage that same feat Very Happy
There is a well documented ritual called "the stretching of the cord". This was part of the rites involved when laying foundations for a temple. The rites involved the careful orientation of the temple by astronomical observation and measurement. So they most definitely used their knowledge of the night skies.

And no I'm not upset with you for saying what you think Smile
I really would just like to look at what you do like so much about the Romans. You still haven't told us....


and greek and roman scholars admit that egypt and nubia was more advanced thna rome anyway. greeks who visit nubia or wrote about said nubianscience and medcine was more advanced than egypt.in morals,science egypt and nubia was more advanced than rome, technology in nubia and india was more advanced too,and maybe in axum as well and libya.science in india was more advanced than rome.
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kendo1
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry for more than one post but i was trying to edit.
Iwrote about how advanced nubia was on the nubian section of this forum BY THE WAY AWHILE AGO.
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kendo1
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kendo1 wrote:
sorry for more than one post but i was trying to edit.
Iwrote about how advanced nubia was on the nubian section of this forum BY THE WAY AWHILE AGO.



The Nubians were shaped by Egypt, and in turn they influenced Egypt. They built powerful political states, including Kerma, Napata, and Meroe, in the heart of what is now Sudan.


They were developers of agriculture, builders of pyramids, innovators in technology, and creators and bearers of significant religious, cultural, artistic, and social traditions.
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kendo1
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kendo1 wrote:
kendo1 wrote:
sorry for more than one post but i was trying to edit.
Iwrote about how advanced nubia was on the nubian section of this forum BY THE WAY AWHILE AGO.



The Nubians were shaped by Egypt, and in turn they influenced Egypt. They built powerful political states, including Kerma, Napata, and Meroe, in the heart of what is now Sudan.


They were developers of agriculture, builders of pyramids, innovators in technology, and creators and bearers of significant religious, cultural, artistic, and social traditions.


in fact egypt was first influence by nubia. this info was taken from a website about nubia.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kendo1 has said:
in fact egypt was first influence by nubia. this info was taken from a website about nubia

Where did you get that information? It would be interesting to see any documented proof. As far as I know, Nubia went through several stages, including a vassal to Egypt (to insure the supply of gold), and even at one time being rulers of Egypt.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All evidence suggests that in late prehistory Egypt and Nubia (particularly the A Group culture, Lower Nubia) were on par developmentally. Both were well on their way to becoming states of their own. There was extensive trade and interaction in particular between the Qustul people of Lower Nubia and the Hierakonpolis (Nekhen) people of Upper Egypt.

Evidently Egypt thrust forward first, however. By late Naqada III the Egyptians were sending campaigns into Lower Nubia to assault the A Group people, most probably to wrest control of the natural resources they possessed and eliminate the lucrative Nubian position as middleman to trade relations with tribes farther to the south in Africa.

In the end Egypt succeeded. The Qustul population did not reach the level of statehood, and the A Group culture was pretty much wiped out around the time of the reign of Sneferu.

I'd say it was chance, if nothing else. At the start both Egypt and Nubia were of pretty equal status, but Egypt moved first to be the dominant state.
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kendo1
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: PRE-KERMA Reply with quote

And recent have found the a city/town called pre-kerma that is even older then the a-group. it goes back to 5000 b.c.

it was talk about on the show on pbs the wonders of the african world by henry gates jr.

------------

a-group culture in lower nubia starting around 3800 b.c.
we know more about this civilization starting in lower nubia because more digging and research has been done.


in upper nubia we are just beginning to to more research dealing with pre-kerma.

So it seems that civilization in nubia started really in upper nubia around 5,000 b.c., making nubia the oldest civilization in africa so far,BUT NUBIAN culture goes back more than this.
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kendo1
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the book by david o' conner ancient nubia ,o'conner does mention that the lower group nubians were ahead of upper egypt and even had control of southern upper egypt but this change once upper egypt caught up to the a-group civilization.

WHEN THIS BOOK WAS written in the early 90's, scholars did not know at this time that there was a pre-kerma period in nubian history but certain african historians did hint that nubian civilization did went farther back then folks realized and it was confirm in the 90's.
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kendo1
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ONE THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT southern nubia was never taken over by the ancient egyptians. parts of lower nubia and lower was taken at times by egyptians and later upper nubia for almost 500 years but never southern nubia.

even when upper nubia was taken over you had revolts from time to time.even in lower nubia but more so in upper nubia. you even had revolts in egypt by nubians in and egyptians when rome and the greeks became rulers.

in egypt there was a free upper egypt during the greek period of egypt for about 20 years.

during roman egypt you had egyptians/libyans that revolted in the oasis in upper egypt and we free ever since until the arab came in.

check these book out. it talks about nubia too and of course roman egypt.

Robert B. Jackson, At Empire's Edge: Exploring Rome's Egyptian Frontier.
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kendo1
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's check this book out.

There was another one, but i can't recall now.
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Isis 2
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you know that there are more pyramids in Nubia (Sudan) than in Egypt Shocked
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electrolyte1
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egypt existed for thousands of years BEFORE the Roman Empire. The Romans were obviously influenced and copied many things from Egypt.

They respected Egypt so much, that they stole obelisks and erected them in Rome.


Really, Egyptian writing came before the development of the alphabet, so you could say that all forms of writing after it owes it's development to it's ancestors.
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