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Nefertiti and Akhenaten related???
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Horapollo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Tiye and Nefertiry had TEMPLES dedicated to them - which btw is rather more than Nefertiti had. But of course is one is wedded to the belief that Nefer was a daughter of Amenhotep III despite a total lack of any support for such a theory there is no more to be said.


The Nubian temples are not dedicated to the worship of those queens but to Hathor. The queens are doing the worshipping there of the goddess--or at least Nefertari is at Abu Simbel--because it is difficult to know what Tiye was up to as her temple is ruined, but probably it's the same. I think you can understand why there is no temple where Nefertiti is depicted worshipping Hathor. And I am still waiting for you to provide the scene you mentioned where Tiye is being worshipped as a god alongside Amenhotep III.
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Horapollo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that Nefertiti had her own sunshade temple at Akhetaten where she could worship the Aten, but she was not the only lady there to have one.

One thing I have noticed about the discussion in this thread is that people here just say whatever pops into their heads [which is fine] but fail to respond to the points of others [especially if they weigh contra their own stance] and tend to just ignore them. That is the opposite of what happens in scholarly discourse. And if one doesn't have a good argument against such points the decent thing is to acknowledge them and say "You may be right" or the entire discussion takes on a peevish and rather childish tone. In a post I read by the owner of this board, he mentions new people don't stay around here long. I can understand why that would be because I haven't been exactly impressed by the friendliness of this board. What has struck me is how quick people are to suggest that others have no right to their opinions, especially if they go against the majority here or long-held Egyptological "truths", which only began as opinion in the first place.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no body here believes you cant have opinions. but a lot of the people who sign up here believe in the 'fringe' theories, and refuse to accept that the evidence they believe they have for these theories does not come to the same conclusion egyptologists and scholars have. itf fine to believe the pyramids where built by aliens- just dont expect anyone else here to believe it.

we try to base our discussions and arguments on scholarly and archaeological evidence, as you have seen. and yes not every come back is answered, and i think you will find that most people get sick of giving the same evidence to the same people, and thats why they stop answering threads.

another point people get sick of, and i am one, is people claiming their discussions 'are only theories'. yet these people will then answer questions by new posters presenting their 'theories' as fact. when you believe something, you are entitled to believe it. but, when you start telling people what you believe, and it is presented as fact, then you are in fact spreading false information. and that is unacceptable.
by this, i mostly mean the DNA discussions by neteria. i have seen that person answering posts by people, which i have no problem with! but they have given answers in which the only evidence to support the answer lies in the alleles tables they put up. so the new comers asking the questions then get confused, because the dna alleles theory has been presented as fact to these people, and when others with actual egyptological training say that is not an accepted theory, and then give evidence as to why it isnt, people then get confused.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly how does identifying Nefertiti with Tefnut differ from identifying Tiye and Nefertiry with Hathor?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horapollo wrote:
Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that Nefertiti had her own sunshade temple at Akhetaten where she could worship the Aten, but she was not the only lady there to have one.


Nefer also seems to have been the chief officiant at the benben temple in Luxor.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key problem for me is you seem to be inventing a rule out of whole cloth to support a theory that has no documentation to support it.
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Horapollo
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Exactly how does identifying Nefertiti with Tefnut differ from identifying Tiye and Nefertiry with Hathor?


Where is the proof that Tiye and Nefertari were "identified with Hathor"? If you read what I wrote about the "form" of Hathor, perhaps you can explain what that means. Can you also, for example, explain how Nefertari can still be "identified with Hathor" and be depicted worshipping the goddess in that temple at Abu Simbel? Nobody is depicted worshipping Nefertari! And I gather by now that when you claimed there was a scene where Amenhotep III and Tiye were worshipped together as gods, you really did not know where such a scene could be found. And then there is the tomb of Nefertari, where Hathor is among the deities shown with the queen. So first, since you claim a "fact", perhaps you should be the one to do some explaining about what evidence convinces you it's so.

Now Nefertiti is called "nTrt" or "goddess" in the commoner tomb of Ay. I asked Ms. Griffis-Greenberg to supply an example of where Tiye was referred to in the same manner and I believe if she knew of one she would have supplied that by now.

What does make sense to me is that queens should have been the chief priestesses of Hathor and thereby be able to wear the emblems of Hathor in their headdresses. The queens, like an American first lady, would be seen to embody some of the best attributes of the goddess. However, many of the attributes of Hathor would have not been practical or even becoming to a royal lady. A hymn to Hathor says:

" Thou art the Mistress of Jubilation, the Queen of the Dance, the Mistress of Music, the Queen of the Harp Playing, the Lady of the Choral Dance, the Queen of Wreath Weaving, the Mistress of Inebriety Without End."

The worship of Hathor was very popular and both women and men became her priests.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is a known scene of amenhotep III or maybe ramses II worshiping themselves. they deified themselves, and worshiped their own figures. how is this any different then a queen worshiping her own self in the guise of a goddess?

cleopatra claimed to be the goddess isis, and is shown worshiping that goddess with caesarion at the temple of dendera.

each egyptian pharoah claimed to be horus, yet they are shown worshiping that god as well.

it seems to me you are trying to make up a separate rule (so that it makes it possible nefertiti was royal) and denying the same evidence you have for this rule in other circumstances.

im afraid it shows that you either have no understanding of egyptian mythology or that you are so desperate for your theories to work, you make things up, ala zahi hawass.

nefertiti held no titles giving her royal status on her own. she was royal because she married a pharaoh. it has been pointed out that where a woman was entitled to a title she used it. especially if it was royal. the only example of a royal lady dropping titles, is ankhsenamun, and the reasons for that are clear.

so if you refuse to accept the facts, it is your problem. but stop saying their is no evidence for these discussions. and it would be nice to quit bringing up the same arguments, because they have already been answered.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rising status Great Wives of pharaoh from merely 'First among Women' to female counterpart of Pharaoh INCLUDING sharing his divinity is easily traceable over the course of the 18th dynasty and the case of Tiye under which it took a quantum leap makes it *quite* clear that such promotion had nothing to do with the lady's royal blood. IF Nefertiti really was regarded as a goddess on earth unlike earlier queens all it indicates is the logical end of this process NOT that she was King's Daughter.

Regretfully there is NO solid evidence of Nefertiti's family background only the negative evidence of her failure to EVER use the King's Daughter title to make it pretty certain she was not a member of the immediate royal family. We know she had a sister, Mutbeneret, but her parents unlike those of Tiye are never named. Tey, wife of Aye, is her 'wet-nurse' not mother and Aye though he comes to prominence after her marriage to Akhenaten is never called her father. Could she and Mutbeneret have been orphaned relatives adopted by Aye and Tey? Or were they her parents and Akhenaten, unlike his father, wished to elide the fact his wife was not royal?
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Horapollo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
there is a known scene of amenhotep III or maybe ramses II worshiping themselves. they deified themselves, and worshiped their own figures. how is this any different then a queen worshiping her own self in the guise of a goddess?


That was how Raymond Johnson saw it--that Amenhotep III was worshipping himself in a scene--but there are other ways of interpreting the same scene. That's the trouble with some of you here. You learn of some theory and then assume the Egyptologist had taken a time machine back some three thousand years and found out exactly what had happened. Because theories become facts for you--when you want them to. Did you ever notice that Egyptologists being right or wrong is a fluid state of affairs? They even recant their own assertions at times. It's not an exact sciene and depends largely on opinions and assumptions. There is plenty of leeway for the individual to think for himself. However, not even Johnson has asserted that Queen Tiye "worshipped her own self". Regardless, kings of Egypt were normally called "nTr nfr" or "good or beautiful god". But not their wives. Just Nefertiti. Accept it.

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cleopatra claimed to be the goddess isis, and is shown worshiping that goddess with caesarion at the temple of dendera.


That's right. You see? I don't deny anything where there is sufficient proof. And yet Cleopatra VII lived a long time after the New Kingdom. And, thanks to Julius Caesar, she was not a queen consort but a ruler in her own right. If she wanted to proclaim she was a reincarnation of the chief female deity of her time, there was no one to stop her. And, like another female ruler long before her, Haytshepsut, she had the right to call herself "good goddess".

Quote:
each egyptian pharoah claimed to be horus, yet they are shown worshiping that god as well.


That was part of the institution of "divine kingship", yes, that "the Horus" succeeded the Osiris, the dead pharaoh, according to the Egyptian religion. But there was no institution for the divinity of the chief wife, who could even be a commoner. Only the kings were styled "son of Ra" but in the case of Nefertiti, she was styled a "daughter of Ra" as Tefnut personified.

Quote:
it seems to me you are trying to make up a separate rule (so that it makes it possible nefertiti was royal) and denying the same evidence you have for this rule in other circumstances.


That may be how things seem to you but I am not denying anything that makes sense and where there is ample proof.

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im afraid it shows that you either have no understanding of egyptian mythology or that you are so desperate for your theories to work, you make things up, ala zahi hawass.


As far as I am aware, I haven't "invented" anything.

Quote:
nefertiti held no titles giving her royal status on her own. she was royal because she married a pharaoh. it has been pointed out that where a woman was entitled to a title she used it. especially if it was royal. the only example of a royal lady dropping titles, is ankhsenamun, and the reasons for that are clear.


You haven't been paying close attention to the discussion. Not just Ankhesenamun but Meritaten, too. One sees her in the tomb of Meryre II with Smenkhkare and she is only styled "king's wife". And you can hardly say with certainty that it's on account of Akhenaten being a heretic because there is the possibility that Smenkhkare was a co-regent with Akhenaten.

Quote:
so if you refuse to accept the facts, it is your problem. but stop saying their is no evidence for these discussions. and it would be nice to quit bringing up the same arguments, because they have already been answered.


Or you could shut up. I think that would benefit the discussion more.
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horapollo wrote:

Or you could shut up. I think that would benefit the discussion more.

In case you missed it while reading the rules (which you have done, haven't you?)....
1.g. Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will lead to a warning or ban.


One and only warning I'm going to give. Keep it civil or get banned. Your choice.
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Horapollo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
The rising status Great Wives of pharaoh from merely 'First among Women' to female counterpart of Pharaoh INCLUDING sharing his divinity is easily traceable over the course of the 18th dynasty


That statement is just flat out wrong. A chief wife was never the "female counterpart" of the king unless, for some reason, she became his co-regent as Nefertiti may have done. As to "rising status", that should mean the power of the queens became increasingly great. So why did Ankhesenamun have to write to the Hittites for a prince to sit beside her on the throne? Where is the prominence of the wives of Ay and Horemheb?
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Horapollo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin, in case you haven't noticed, I was the one who was flamed, accused of not knowing what I'm talking about and "of making things up". I don't need your warning and I don't have time to keep responding to this uninformed nonsense. So long.
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Kevin
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So be it.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess things are going to get a little quieter around here. Smile

There is a growing tendency for King's Great Wives to use similar iconography to their husbands. Under Amenhotep III this included Tiye being represented as the same size as he and in scenes trampling the nine bows underfoot as a Tiye headed sphynx. This trend continued under Akhenaten with Nefertiti sharing in his religious duties and being worshiped alongside him as an intermediary with the Aten as well as crushing the heads of enemies in pharaonic fashion. There is no question that Nefer was a powerful queen before her probable death c. yr. 14. But as we see with Tiye that has everything to do with her husband's desire to give her prominence not with any 'right' to divinity she might have as a royal princess.
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