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Evidence for Neferneferuaten as well as Smenkhare
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
it did occur to me it's interesting that if my conjecture is right (big if) then Meritaten became regent and married her sis Ankhes to her young charge? I wonder if there was ever any thought of Meritaten marrying Tut herself?

Depends on what the rules to the throne were (vs what we believe them to be). It seems clear that once the crown price becomes king, his brothers drop a notch in royalty - you never see "King's Brother" anywhere. It might maintain maat by not inducing your kid brother to assassinate you.

Same might be true for the widowed Queen - her royal powers dwindled and the best boost for Tut was Ankhes.

Quote:
Is that part of the speculation that Kiya made a grab for the throne even? The only thing pointing to that would be Kiya's altered monuments right? Never really bought into that myself. Kiya as Neferneferuaten?

It doesnt have to be that grand or Oliver Stone-ish. She could be carping for a bigger house, a depiction of her and Smenky or her picture on a postage stamp - "...after all, unlike ~~someone~~ I could name, I have given you a son!"
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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She could be carping for a bigger house, a depiction of her and Smenky or her picture on a postage stamp


LOL That reminds me of a description of the North Palace where she apparently lived. Seems she might have asked for a bigger palace because she didn't like the postage stamp sized one she was actually living in.
It also housed animals, so it would have no doubt held a wonderful aroma. Laughing

I can see it now:

I am the one giving you sons, and you house me with the animals, while that "she who must not be named" gets to live in prime real estate. She doesn't even know how to put the stem on the apple. Unbelievable... <walks off muttering and gesticulating wildly>
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Kaya is Tadukhepha it may have proved terrible news to her retinue to learn of the sacking by Hittites. One wonders what the idyllic post stamp sized temple city must have been experienced as.

Personally, I think Sitamun was not Amenhotep and Tiye's offspring.
Secondly, it seems hypothetically plausible that she was the mother of Nefertiti and Smenkhare. Neferneferuaten seems likely to have been either Aye and Dey's "daughter" whose name escapes me or perhaps Bekaten Tiye's " daughter" fatherless as she appeared to be..
Something about that whole strange period presents a surreal portrait where the sexes of children are kept secret until it is considered wise to introduce them to society.
The eldest surviving "daughter" of Akhenaten and Nefertiti seems the most likely candidate Neferneferuaten. But Im not convinced any of the children of the Aten were actually the birth children of Nefertiti and Akhenaten. Looked mre like a commune than a baby factory.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maahes wrote:
the sexes of children are kept secret until it is considered wise to introduce them to society.


What makes you say that? In most depictions they are nude and clearly female.

Especially with the Armana art they seem to be trying to tell us something with Nefertiti and older daughters wearing see-thru attire to make their gender apparant.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that either they were focused with intensity on producing a living goddess or adopting them from the harem... and yet no male children are evident anywhere. The same is true for Tiye's children. Perhaps a female child was truly male. None of the flax garment material was truly transluent after all. Its way out there I admit but who was Beketaten? and why is she never in the same scenes as Dey and Aye's youngest "daughter" not Mut- forgot her name- then there is Paatenheb the heriditary prince and Ka..hmm and what's with the head binding?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it's true that there is no depiction of royal male children, I think it is a big mistake to assume that there was some big plot to hide them, to make them appear to be female in any depiction. I really think the pictures of the little girls are just that--little girls.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That makes perfect sense naturally. Does it strike anyone as odd how many female children are depicted in AE art versus male children?
Does this era seem to be particularly pleased with the female form?
And lastly, what do we know about Beketaten and Aye/Dey youngest daughter? Question Idea Question
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maahes wrote:
Does it strike anyone as odd how many female children are depicted in AE art versus male children?


If Nefertiti bore Akhenaten no male children there is nothing odd or conspiratorial about it at all.

It is easy to assume Akhenaten had male children by lesser wives but it would not be appropriate to include them in a family depiction of Mr and Mrs Akhenaten & Kids. Any male children from lesser wives wouldnt be 'full' royal and as long as Nefertiti was of child bearing years, there was hope.

When Smenkhare and Tut pop up from nowhere, they quickly marry into the family as an apparent means of cementing their claim to the throne.

Makes sense to me...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me rephrase that query..Is it mortal men, each one perpetuating the notion that their divine conception brought them at least half the way to guarnteed immortality- Is it a mortal man the divine king of god's progeny his royal mortal son keeps secret the names and titles of his male heirs but not his daughter's?
What sort of leverage does marrying the king's daughter present for a nomarch or nobleman? We see the images of many a royal daughter and yet none of Amenhotep the Great's daughters survived long enough to produce a son worthy of remembering?
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding KV55/Tiye and related

Prof Aldred, 1968 p154:
"Some sixty years later, in the early Ramsside times, the final act in this drama must have been played. Someone, who can only have been a Pharoah, evidently decided that Tiye's burial ought to be removed from the polluting presence of Akhenaten, perhaps to the tomb of her husband, and all record of the King and his co-regent detroyed. Howard Carter, who made clearances in the tomb of Amenphis III, claomed to have discovered that Tiye had been buried there, and his unpublished notes (thanks, Howie) speak of his finding objects bearing her name in the tomb itself and an alabaster shawabti inscribed with her cartouche below the tomb entrance, and the lower half of another in the 'protective' well."

Armana Tomb occupant, p 243:
"The write (ie Aldred) is disposed to interpret the very scanty evidence and ill-recorded data as favouring the view that soon after the death of Merek-Aten, Nefert-iti died and was buried in the Toyal Tomb at Armana according tot he promise made on the earlier Boundary Stellae. Professor Fairman who was in the expedition that re-excavated the tomb in 1932, but failed to publish a full report (thanks, Fairman), has declared that he found the name of Nefertoiti prominient in the main burial hall on the pillar fragments and walls, and has since wondered whether the tomb was not in fact hers. The so-called 'well' has been cut in the tomb-corridor; and this is generally thought to have been done after a burial had been made."

The same page goes on to note an incident in 1891-2 in which a mummy was "said" to have been found laying outside the Royal Tomb by officials of the Antiquities Service. The mummy was torn to shreds, but may more likely have been from a nearby Coptic burial rather than that of Akhenaten, Merek-Aten or Nefertiti, but he does not indicate if there was an examination or the results thereof. He does posit "whereas it is certain that all the burials in the Royal Tomb were removed elsewhere when the town was abandoned and necropolis guards withdrawn."
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the elusive AnkETkheperure...

Petrie reports 26 total instances of Akhenaten's name linked with his successor. Of those, apparently only 8 (eight) are in the feminine form. Seven of them (7) are the product of seal impressions made from a single master.

One sample uses the femine epithet 'meret Neferkhepreure'. Subsequent Armana excavations have uncovered no further samples.

Presumably, the Pere graffitto would make a 9th -- but only 3rd unique -- instance of the feminine form.

Curious, if accurate.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting. Have you ever seen how many Ankhkheperure's are found?

It seems Ankh-et-kheperure may only have been in "power" for a short time. I'm not entirely sure how much power this individual had. It seems that the reference to a temple at Karnak (in the graffiti) may be one of the few instances of a monument associated with this person. And that one may just be a temple usurped from the era of Akhenaten. He had some 5 structures erected there after all in the beginning of his reign.

On a slightly different topic: I can't figure out where Smenkhare would have originally been buried. My first impression was the royal tomb at Amarna, but wouldn't that tomb have been a tad full at this point? It contained the burials (apparently) of Akhenaten, Meketaten, Tiye, and probably Nefertiti and Kiya?
The tomb doesn't seem THAT large. Or was the excavation of the extra suite of rooms coming off the entrance possibly a depository for all these royals?

I looked at the list of tombs in Amarna and there are not that many places where royals could have been buried I think.

I at some point collected the info I could find on
the tombs in Amarna

Tombs 26, 27, 28 and 29 could be possibilities?
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
That's interesting. Have you ever seen how many Ankhkheperure's are found?

It seems Ankh-et-kheperure may only have been in "power" for a short time. I'm not entirely sure how much power this individual had.


If accurate, I am beginning the think there was no AnkhETkheperure. Two or three unique instances do not make for a compelling case. Is the Pere tomb even the feminine form? My book is not handy, but I think that is a Male form of the name but with beloved of Akhenaten, implying feminity.

As for Ankhkheperure references, in linked cartouche instances alone they outnumber -ET- versions almost 2 to one (if you count the clay/wax impressions as the result of a single miffed master).

This is by no means comprehensive:
Armana Yr 1 Wine dockets: 43
Yr 2: 25
These are from Petrie and can only be from Smenkhare or Tut; but only 1 or 2 have Smenky's name.

Between 1979 and 1982, 6 more from yrs 1 and 2 have come to light.

According to CoA II assorted scarabs, pendants, ring and amulets from Armana break down thusly (CoA I and III do not so summarize it):
Amenhotep - 35
Akhenaten - 116
Nefertiti - 26
Smenkhare - 65
Tutankhaten - 92

Plus all the jars and misc in Tut's tomb.

EA41, given its context, may very well be addressed to Smenkhare. The name "ana huria" doesnt match anyone, but could be a typo of "ana [Anah] Huria" or Ankhkheprure. If true, the context ('My dad and yours got along swell') strongly suggests Smenkhy was son of Amenhotep III.


I havent gotten there yet, BUT Giles maintains that Meriaten was almost certainly younger than Smenkhy. If he ascended at age 16, co ruled for 2-3 years and died at 20-23, he would need no regant. But there is a hint of a suggestion that Ankhessenamun 'ruled' for a year after Tut, before Ay.

I havent gotten to the evidentiary basis for this yet, but so far the basis is in aligning the chronology with known reign of Asiatic rulers.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:NTrtxRgil3wJ:echosofeternity.umkc.edu/Sequins.htm+Gold+sequins+smenkhkare+&hl=nl

Three gold sequins from the tomb of Tutankhamun engraved with the double cartouche that bears two forms of the name of the pharaoh Smenkhkare : "Ankhkheprure beloved of Aten, Nefernefruaten the Ruler"
I have the orginal article with the pictures where you can clearly see the double cartouches.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rozette wrote:
Three gold sequins from the tomb of Tutankhamun engraved with the double cartouche that bears two forms of the name of the pharaoh Smenkhkare : "Ankhkheprure beloved of Aten, Nefernefruaten the Ruler"


Yea, his name/cartouche seems to fall into 2 groups: 'Ankhkheprure Smenkhare Djeserkhepru'. The second set is 'Ankhkheprure Neferneferuaten" which uses the epithet's 'beloved of Aten' or 'beloved of Waenre'. The -ET-'s are variations of this form. In one case, 'meret Neferkheprure' is used and in one single instance, hk3, 'Ruler' is used (which would seem to be your sequins).

The wine docket 'Year 1 [of Tut] from Smenkhare, deceased' would indicate whatever his handle in life, he died and/or was known as DJ ("Jazzy") Smenkhy afterwards.
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