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Coregency between Amenhotep III and Akhenaten
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:26 pm    Post subject: Coregency between Amenhotep III and Akhenaten Reply with quote

I believe this is still being debated. Some Egyptologists claim that there was a 12 year co-regency. During this period there were in effect two courts: one presided over by Amenhotep III and his wife Tiye, and the other presided over by Akhenaten and his wife Nefertiti.

What are the arguments for and against such a co-regency?
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the late reply, I'm a newcomer to the site. Smile I'm a big supporter of the 12-year co-regency theory, mostly because of 2 things: On the coffin of Princess Meketaten (who died in the 12th regnal year of her father), there are 2 cartouches, that of Amenhotep III and that of Akhenaten, which indicates a co-regency. Of course this also can mean that the coffin was made years earlier. The stronger evidence, as Tyldesley points out, is Beketaten's age. The youngest daughter of Amenhotep III appears to be the same age as Akhenaten's 3rd or 4th daughter (if we compare their height on the wall paintings). Also, there's a wall painting in the tomb of Huy (?) showing the two royal families together, Akhenaten, Nefertiti and some daughters on the left, Amenhotep III, Tiye and Baketaten on the right.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I didn't remember well, it was Osman (famous for his weird theories Smile ) who took Beketaten's age for an evidence of co-regency. Tyldesley just said that it is one of the possibilities, she also stated that Beketaten could be older than she seemed on the paintings and maybe she can be identified with Princess Nebetah (Amenhotep's last pre-Amarna-era daughter). However, I can't see why should had Nebetah changed her name to Beketaten; her name simply meant Lady of the Palace and didn't refer to any gods.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferuaten wrote:
The stronger evidence, as Tyldesley points out, is Beketaten's age. The youngest daughter of Amenhotep III appears to be the same age as Akhenaten's 3rd or 4th daughter (if we compare their height on the wall paintings).


Could u get sufficient info on comparing heights? Height of a figure in a depiction would be associated to their importance. Two princesses next to each other, with the same importance, would get depicted similarly. Not a question of age if u ask me. There are depictions of Amonherkhopsjef, son of Ramses III, who died in his youth, being bigger than his servants. I doubt they were all midgets somehow Smile

I've been looking like nuts for this:

Neferuaten wrote:
wall painting in the tomb of Huy (?) showing the two royal families together, Akhenaten, Nefertiti and some daughters on the left, Amenhotep III, Tiye and Baketaten on the right.


Would u know of a link to look this up? I'm not real familiar to Tyldesley and can't find anything like this on the net. Don't think I've ever seen it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Change 'Tyldesley' to 'Osman' in my message Cool
Sorry, was too late to read your second message.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a paper on the co-regency issue on:
http://www.geocities.com/eeflib/EEFLibrary1.html

The strongest argument I have heard in favor of the co-regency is from the tomb of Ramose (TT55).
I have to look it up again, but the bottom line is that if there's no co-regency, then they would have had to bury the guy, and open up the tomb some 10 yrs later just to add a relief of Akhenaten.
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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2004 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
Could u get sufficient info on comparing heights? Height of a figure in a depiction would be associated to their importance. Two princesses next to each other, with the same importance, would get depicted similarly. Not a question of age if u ask me. There are depictions of Amonherkhopsjef, son of Ramses III, who died in his youth, being bigger than his servants. I doubt they were all midgets somehow Smile


Yes, but there are pictures on which the elder princess seems taller (I've seen it on some stelaes, and, after all, arts in Amarna are supposed to be realistic Smile ). Also, her name has Aten in it, although it wouldn't be an evidence in itself.

Segereh wrote:
I've been looking like nuts for this:
Neferuaten wrote:
wall painting in the tomb of Huy (?) showing the two royal families together, Akhenaten, Nefertiti and some daughters on the left, Amenhotep III, Tiye and Baketaten on the right.


Would u know of a link to look this up? I'm not real familiar to Tyldesley and can't find anything like this on the net. Don't think I've ever seen it.


http://www.meritaton.net/picture/2family.jpg

I've also read in Osman's book that a cup was found with the names Nebmaatre and Akhet-Aten written on it, and there's also a stone tablet with Nebmaatre's name and Aten's name. Aten's name is written in the later version which was not used till the 8th year. (I haven't seen any pictures of these, though).
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But part of the assumption here is that all of Akhenaten and Nefertiti's daughters were born after he ascended the throne.

Is there any compelling reason to assume he only married after coming to the throne?
Do we have any idea what year Akhenaten may have been born?

If we allow a marriage before coming to the throne, his eldest children could easily be older than his younger sister.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick count.

Ankhes is 21 years old when having to marry Aye.
Tut ruled between 8 and 10 years.
Smench ruled between 1 and 2 years.
Achenaton ruled at least 12 years, at most some 17 years.

In the most extreme of counts this would make Anches being born between Achenatons first and eight years of reign.

The depiction only shows 4 daughters to Achen, with the eldest one - if we look at stylistics (which I don't like, this pic not being the original) - starting to hit puberty.

How much did Achen's children differ in age?
If we stretch things, we could come up with this:

The earliest that Anches could've been born, would be Achens first regnal year. If she's depicted here, that would make her already a little older. That would be one fine piece of 'evidence' underlining a coregency.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meaning: if she's depicted, it would be on a later date in Achenatons rule. Amenhotep III still being shown next to him, would make an instigation to a coregency.

One point though...
Being difficult again.

What makes u believe Amenhotep III still lived at the time this depiction was made? It's not a cartouche that can state he's still alive. The hieroglyphics are pretty damaged, so it isn't sure there doesn't say he's "maa-cheroe", true of voice, dead. Dead pharaohs (in this case with family then) were rather often depicted, being idols, gods after their death. The showing of his family in amarna-style would make a good argument for this. Making it an Amarna-dedication to the deceased Amenhotep III.

One more problem though.
The depiction is clearly Amarna.
Why were Amenhotep III's cartouches still used? (They're carved out, so they must've been there first, no?)
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amarna tar-pits indeed Laughing
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the correct line of logic is to try to deduce how old Ankhesenamun was upon her marriage to Aye, not just assume someone's claim is correct and then work backwards.

Her image is added to the royal family in roughly year 6 it seems.
That's why I wondered when princesses are added to monuments.
Due to child mortality, it seems they might wait until they are somewhat older. They may also only depict those that are able to perform some role.

So all wecan say is that she was born before year 6.
We don't now if A&N were married before coming to the throne, so she may be quite a bit older than we think.

(Assuming 18 years total for Akhenaten and 1 for Smenkhare and 9 for Tut, we would get 12+1+9 = 22 years old. But if we assume she wasn't depicted right after birth, then she could have been in her late twenties.)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an old topic, but I keep finding it rather interesting Very Happy

Found a mention of a somewhat recent article about the co-regency:
Quote:
MARTÍN VALENTÍN, Francisco J., Indicaciones y evidencias de una corregencia entre Amenhotep III y Amenhotep IV en la necrópolis tebana,Boletín de la Asociación Española de Egiptología, Madrid 6 (1996), 119-146. (fig.).

Four Theban tombs display a number of common characteristics which strongly support the theory of a coregency between Amenhotep III and Akhnaton. The tombs are TT 48 (Amenemhat), TT 55 (Ramose), TT 57 (Khaemhat), and TT 192 (Kheruef). The similarities can be summarized as follows: a) relief technique; b) theme (the audience scene of Amenhotep III’s year 30); c) three tombs belong to persons related to the king; d) all tombs show signs of a damnatio memoriae; e) all owners participated in the ceremonies of year 30; f) all tombs were constructed and decorated by the same individual (probably Sa-Mut); g) in at least three tombs both sovereigns are depicted. The coregency would have begun in year 28 and lasted until year 38/39. The tombs were therefore constructed in Amenhotep IV’s "Theban" period and the owners seem to have fallen in disgrace in either the years 30/31 or year 37. W.H.


All we seem to get is "strong indications" and nothing conclusive.

I have always thought that if mummy "older lady" is really Tiye (based on the lock of hair from Tut's tomb that matches hers), then this would also point in the direction of a coregency.
For if there were no co-regency then Tiye would have to be some 60+ years of age and the body found is of a lady who is quite a bit younger.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anneke, if you want to read a rather convincing arguement in favor of the co-regency, let me suggest "The Amarna Age: Egypt" by Fredrick J. Giles, also Murnane's "Co-Regency", both of which convinced me. If you get Giles' "Amarna Age", be sure to get the Egypt one--he has several different areas covered. Kind of dry reading, but very interesting.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may check that out. (if budget permits Very Happy)
I got interested again because of some authors from the Akhenaten Temple Project (lead by D. Redford) don't seem to want to get into the debate and more or less say they will just ignore it.

I am curious as to what the arguments AGAINST the co-regency are. I think I have heard the other side, but I would like to know what the arguments on both side of the fence are.
The only thing I have ever heard is the argument that there were no other coregencies in this time period. But I don't think this is really correct?
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