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Was Aye Vizier at Amarna?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:47 pm    Post subject: Was Aye Vizier at Amarna? Reply with quote

I found this image which is said to be of Aye.
It looks like it stems from the Amarna age.

The figure is dressed as a vizier. Dos anyone know who the viziers at the end of Akhenaten's reign were? I know of ones from the beginning of his reign : Aperel and Ramose.
Nakhtpaaten was a vizier who had a tomb in Amarna, but there should be two Viziers, not one.

I somehow thought Aye was Vizier under Tut. Anyone have more info?


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Rozette
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote Anneke : I found this image which is said to be of Aye.

I did some research about the viziers of Akhenaten at the end of his reign, but I couldn't find anything. I found only information about the three you mentioned.


Quote Anneke : I somehow thought Aye was Vizier under Tut.

The image that you found is maybe from the early reign of Tutankhaten , when the court was still in Amarna.
And the art was still influenced by the Amarna Age. (This is only speculation of myself)
I must admid that I never saw this image before.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The block is in some museum in Europe (I can't remember which one).

I remember that the description mentioned that there is a uraeus added to the brow leading to the identification as Aye.
I thought it was interesting because Aye followed the Amarna era by quite a few years.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a person by the name of Usermontu (son of Nebmehyt) whose statue is in private possession in Luxor, as Vizier under Tutankhamun. Not known though if he was Upper or Lower Vizier, but given that the statue is in Luxor (at least now it is) maybe a very tentative guess at Vizier of Upper Egypt for Usermontu.
As for Vizier under Akhenaten, I only have the same 3 men. I wonder who took over after Aper-el?

I hadn't really read of the evidence for Aye actually becoming Vizier, so this block in the photo is most interesting. The elongated head of Aye and the body slouch seems, to me anyway, to be mid-Amarna era. Do you think?
I wondered too, but I can't see in the picture, if you could see if the Aten was holding the 'was' scepter in his hands along with the ankh? I was just thinking of those Aten blocks at Akhmim, and how we wondered a while back if it was a way of dating them.
I notice that the face of Aye has not been damaged - the nose and mouth especially. So much of Aye's stuff was pretty viciously attacked later on. Wonder where the block was discovered? Its a fascinating find.


In Aidon Dodson's book he mentions that "He (Aye) may have become Vizier under Tutankhamun, if a fragment of gold leaf from KV 58 refers to him"
The Theban Mapping Project has this to say about KV58 (unnamed):

Quote:
Noteworthy features: The tomb contained gold foil, which probably belonged to a chariot harness, bearing the names of Tutankhamen and Ay.


Quote:
Site History
This tomb is of an uncertain date although some have thought it was associated as a dependency of KV 57. It appears to have been used as a secondary cache for burial equipment belonging to Ay, which perhaps was originally placed in KV 23. Some have theorized that this material was placed here in association with a possible reburial of Ay in nearby KV 57. Another theory is that it represents an abandoned robber's hoard of material taken from KV 23.

http://www.thebanmappingproject.com/sites/browse_tomb_872.html
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OCKINGA, Boyo G., Another Ramesside Attestation of Usermont, Vizier of Tutankhamun, BACE 5 (1994), 61-66. (fig., pl.).

Work in the late Ramesside Theban tomb of Amenemope (TT 148) revealed scenes depicting the vizier Usermont, who held office under Tutankhamun. This vizier is also mentioned in two other Theban tombs of the Ramesside Period (TT 31 of Khons and TT 324 of Hatiay). Another person represented in TT 148 is Ramose, holder of an office in Armant. The newly discovered reliefs and inscriptions of Usermont and Ramose in the tomb of Amenemope are of interest in two ways. Through their relationship to these two men, one can establish a relationship between the families of Amenemope and Khons, and most probably Hatiay as well. They are all closely connected with Armant. Amenemope belonged to an old and influential family, the roots of which reach back to the end of the XVIIIth Dynasty. The association with Tutankhamun did not affect its later fortunes.
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OCKINGA, Boyo, Macquarie Theban Tombs Project. TT 148: The Tomb of Amenemope. Report on the 1994/1995 and 1995/1996 Seasons, BACE 7 (1996), 65-73. (plans, pl.).


Preliminary report on the excavation of the tomb of Amenemope (TT 148), son of Tjanefer (TT158), at Dra Abu’l Naga. After the description of the courtyard and the foundations of the pylon the author compares N.K. Theban rock-cut tombs with Memphite above-ground tomb-chapel architecture, notably those of Maya and Horemheb, who were of equal social rank. There are parallels suggesting that the two tomb types have more in common than first meets the eye. A description of the finds in TT 148 and a note on its recording follow.
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P. Newberry, JEA 18 (1932) p.52 gives the 12 occurences of Ay's titles.
Vizier is one of them, however there is only one occurence. On the band of gold foil, Ay's name is not preserved but it is certain the title belong to him.
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote Gerard : P. Newberry, JEA 18 (1932) p.52 gives the 12 occurences of Ay's titles.
Vizier is one of them, however there is only one occurence. On the band of gold foil, Ay's name is not preserved but it is certain the title belong to him.


Davis, the tombs of Harmhabi and Tutankh'amuin (London 1912) p. 133
Newberry, "King Ay, the Successor of Tutankh'amuin," JEA, XVIII (1932), 51-52; on p. 52 Newberry has collected an extensive list of the titles of both Ay and Tiy....

In addition to his Amarna titles, there are three important ones which he axcquired subsequent to the decoration of his tomb and before he became king.

They are "Royal chancellor", "Vizier", and Doer of Right". All three of
these occur on a band of gold foil in the Valley of the tombs of the Kings.

While this object does not contain the name of Ay, other articles from the box (?) do, and the only names inscribed on the remainder of the objects in the box are those of Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun.
Furthermore, the title "Doer of Right" was retained by Ay as king and attached to his prenomen in the first cartouche, a fact which assures the attribution of the gold band to Ay.

It is apparent, therefore that Ay rose to the highest non-royal offices in the land and that as Chancellor and Vizier he applied to himself an epithet, "Doer of Right", which like his favorite title, "God's Father", he considered of such preeminent significance that he incorporated into one of his official names upon becoming pharaoh.

While there is no means of determining with absolute certainty when Ay reached the viziership, the lack of added inscriptions in his Amarna tomb suggests that it happened at a time when he no longer contemplated the use of that tomb as a burial place, in other words, at a period where and when the religion of Aton was a thing of the past.

No surviving inscriptions on monuments enlighten us further on this phase of his life.

Pg. 168-180
King Ay and the Close of the Amarna Age, by Keith C. Seele
Journal of Near Eastern Studies © 1955
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seele takes a short cut. There is AFAIK no attestation of Ay presence at Amarna after year 9 and his house has not been found so far. Aton lasted until the end of Akhenaten. This god is fully present in KV62.

"The brevity of my treatment of the meaning of Ay's titles is a confession of ignorance" K.Seele JNES 14 (1055) p.169
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even so, if we'll believe that 'Dahamunzu' and Ankhesenamun are the same person, the allmighty Ay was just seen as a mere "servant" just before his ascension to the kingship.
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cleopatra_selene
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye did however help tutankhamun reign when he was young..im wudnt be suprised if he was the vizier
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazing relief!

I always only thought the royal family were shown under the atens rays as they were the only ones capable of intereacting with it directly?I have never seen a non royal at amarna with such an elongated head like that! Maybe it is an unknown member of the royal family?!

Seems strange Aye or some other non royal would be shown in such a way?!I doubt a non royal would be portrayed with the aten holding out it's hands and even placing a nurturing hand on Ayes head like that unless he was Pharoah!But by the time Aye was Pharoah depictions of the aten had ceased.....

Maybe it is a fake?

This depiction of tut with his nurse shows the sun-i don't think it is the aten for it has no "arms" but it is interesting and unusual how it had ankhs, a was sceptre and a djed pillar protruding from it!

http://www.deepfly.org/images/MaiTutSaqqara.jpg
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Ay was just seen as a mere "servant" just before his ascension to the kingship.
There is a fair chance that the 'servant' in question was Horemheb. If Ay is a brother of queen Tiye she will never have called Ay 'servant'.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerard wrote:
If Ay is a brother of queen Tiye she will never have called Ay 'servant'.


The fact is: Ay is never depicted as queen Tiye's brother which officially could classify him as a non-royal.
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Gerard
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
The fact is: Ay is never depicted as queen Tiye's brother which officially could classify him as a non-royal.

At the time of Ankhesenamon, they knew who was who. It was not necessary to have it in writting. 'offically' is meaning less. Ay as brother of Tiye does not make him royal anyway.

On Tut's succession you may want to read : J.van DIJK "Horemheb and the Struggle for the Throne of Tutankhamun" BACE 7 (1996) pp.29-42
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