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Atenism and the Afterlife
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Brunhilde
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Horenhab took down the aten temple at Karnak - we know that because the endcaps from the batons of the overseers bearing his cartouche were found with the blocks. As Anneke said, most of the dismantling took place under Ramsess. We know this because they were used as fill in his pylons.


The old guy only lived two years so I guess Seti had a hand in it too. Seti, as I can tell from his temples favored the Ennead while his father liked the Theban triad.

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The reasons why they did it range from a) they wanted to obliterate something they considered disgraceful to b) they Ramses acquired the throne thru dubious means so what better way to look like a Good Guy than to paint the previous guys as demons, to c) nobody was using it so it was convenient building material.


a) Duh
b) Dubious? Whats so bad about a king giving the throne to his army buddy?Is it really as bad as giving it to some kid who might be incompetant? Armies are powerful. Never forget that Kaiser Wilheim was forced to abdicate because his generals demanded him to.
c)Agree
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brunhilde wrote:
Dubious? Whats so bad about a king giving the throne to his army buddy?

In a system where the king is supposed to be divine either thru direct intervention (e.g. Amun giving the nod to someone) or thru direct lineage from the previous god-king, naming a successor like a Mafia don is decidedly dubious. Even more so if there were ancillary lines from the Thutmosides still around.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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The reasons why they did it range from a) they wanted to obliterate something they considered disgraceful to b) they Ramses acquired the throne thru dubious means so what better way to look like a Good Guy than to paint the previous guys as demons, to c) nobody was using it so it was convenient building material.


This is good reasoning. I can especially agree with the thought that it was easier to legitimatize one's ascension from commoner's blood to the divine throne by tarnishing the reputation of a controversial predecessor--or maybe I'm just interjecting the style of politics with which I'm familiar here in the United States. Very Happy

I see the thorough dismantling of Akhetaten and the heretic's other monuments as both propoganda and practical. In one sense they were hoping to erase the "stain" Akhenaten had left on the politico-religious record of the Two Lands, doing whatever it took to re-establish the old ways. And in another sense, as Horemheb and certain Ramessides were known to do (particularly Ramesses II), it was easier to use a former monarch's monuments to glorify one's self. In the case of Akhenaten I think it was the seventh pylon at Karnak where they found a tremendous amount of fill from the Tell el-Amarna site.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I see the thorough dismantling of Akhetaten and the heretic's other monuments as both propoganda and practical. In one sense they were hoping to erase the "stain" Akhenaten had left on the politico-religious record of the Two Lands, doing whatever it took to re-establish the old ways.


And what a great "stain" it was. Horemheb and the Ramses group did everything they could possibly think of to remove Akhenaten and his family from the face of history and now a couple thousand years later the wonderful family they tried to erase for all eternity is so well known on a global scale! I guess we can see who the joke is really on now Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I guess we can see who the joke is really on now


No doubt. Horemheb and most of the pharaohs of the rest of the New Kingdom must be spinning in their graves--or in their glass museum display cases, whichever the case may be. Akhenaten will never be as famous as the likes of Ramesses II, but while the average person probably has heard of the Egyptian pharaoh who worshiped "one god," few have ever heard of Horemheb or know anything of his deeds.

It just goes to show, the more you try to cover something up, the more sensational it becomes when it comes to light. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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No doubt. Horemheb and most of the pharaohs of the rest of the New Kingdom must be spinning in their graves--or in their glass museum display cases, whichever the case may be.


LOL, I am sure that you are right!

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Akhenaten will never be as famous as the likes of Ramesses II


Possibly, but that just makes me odd then considering I know absolutely nothing about Ramses II or any of the Ramses for that matter.

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It just goes to show, the more you try to cover something up, the more sensational it becomes when it comes to light.


I think that you just hit the nail on the head there!
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Possibly, but that just makes me odd then considering I know absolutely nothing about Ramses II or any of the Ramses for that matter.


I just look at it from my personal experience in dealing with everyday, average people in the Egypt hall at our museum. You've taken a personal interest in Akhenaten and have studied him, but most of the people with whom I've talked have read little about Egypt other than the cutesy books they read to their young children. While a lot of museum visitors I've encountered have heard something about an Egyptian king who worshiped only one god (which strictly speaking isn't true), most don't know his name and ask me what it is. But probably most of the same people have heard of Ramesses II or Ramesses the Great simply because of how famous a king he was and how long his reign lasted.

Much to my chagrin, though, many people with whom I speak think Tut was the most famous king of his time. They're quite surprised to hear the truth. It's a good example of what the modern media have done to shape our perspective. Mad
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is rather interesting that the actions they took in antiquity almost makes it easier to find out information about the amarna people.

The city was abandoned so that we have the foundations of all the buildings and quite a few finds from that site.

The fact that they used the dismanteled temples as fillers for pylons means that the pieces are there for us to find and study today.

There are many more depictions of Akhenaten then of say Horemheb.
If you do a google-image search on Akhenaten for example you get 4420 hits.
For Horemheb 995. Laughing True, there are some strange hits among those displayed, but the difference in numbers there is rather telling I think.

All in all we do have palaces, temples, and regular houses from the period of Akhenaten available to study.
I was looking for info about Horemheb and that's actually surprisingly tough to find. He has 2 tombs: one in Saqqara, one in the King's VAlley.
There are some temple associated with him, but there are not all that many statues of him, nor are there many nobles who are firmly associated with him (besides Paramessu of course). It's hard to trace the movements of the upper nobility during his reign. HIgh Priests, Viziers, Viceroys, Army, there is some info, but it's not all that illuminating I find.

For the Amarna period you have a little bit more of a sense who the actors were.
Having said that, there are also holes in our info that would make the average swiss cheese quite envious Laughing
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Brunhilde
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Horemheb is like a MacArthur, they want all this power but they do something stupid that ruins there reputation.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horemheb didn't do anything to ruin his reputation though.
His non-royal tomb in Saqqara became a cult center and he was worshipped there for quite a while. He was revered by the Ramesside kings.
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Brunhilde
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean with people today.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Horemheb didn't do anything to ruin his reputation though.
His non-royal tomb in Saqqara became a cult center and he was worshipped there for quite a while. He was revered by the Ramesside kings.


It's not hard to imagine the Ramessides paying homage to Horemheb, given that he gave them their start. He must have been godlike to some of them. But you're right, Horemheb is just not that well-known a figure, and it makes it all the more ironic that Akhenaten should become so popular a figure in the mordern age. I guess people gravitate toward controversy.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I guess people gravitate toward controversy.



I think when concerning Akhenaten scholars not only gravitate towards the controversey that has come to surround him but the mystery as well concerning the lack of evidence. The small amount of artifacts we do have are certainly wonderful things though! sunny
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I think when concerning Akhenaten scholars not only gravitate towards the controversey that has come to surround him but the mystery as well concerning the lack of evidence.


I agree with that, and I can relate in my own humble way. There is still so much mystery that surrounds ancient Egypt, and examples like the Amarna Period and the years that followed draw our attention simply for the lack of certainty that surrounds them. People are compelled by mystery, and ancient Egypt is like a myserty novel whose conclusion is yet to be written.

Add this to the fact that, according to the experts, not even half of what's our there under the sands has been found yet, and we have the makings of a tremendous story that will go on long after all of us have gone to our afterlives. How can we not be addicted to ancient Egypt! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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ancient Egypt is like a myserty novel whose conclusion is yet to be written.


LOL, I wish we knew when the next sequel was coming out

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Add this to the fact that, according to the experts, not even half of what's our there under the sands has been found yet, and we have the makings of a tremendous story that will go on long after all of us have gone to our afterlives.


Wouldn't it just be great to get the opportunity to select a site and just start excavating? I know where I would be going!!
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