Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Hatshepsut and Tuthmosis III
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
VBadJuJu
Priest
Priest


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claire wrote:
Do you thimk that there may have been some sort of rivalry or dislike between tuthnosis and hatshepsut?


I think it is more a matter of how much tension there was between them. It is hard to imagine that T3 was thrilled that Aunt Hattie was openly ruling knowing that he alone should have been king. Human nature being what it is, it seem equally unlikely that Hatshepsut would have been totally heartbroken to hear of some war chariot accident involving T3.

I picture H feeling quite put upon leading up to the coregency. She is the daughter of Thutmosis I and but for that damn XX chromosome she would have been king; she was at least part of the means to the throne for that runt Thumosis II. Then she is called upon to raise that *** T3. In her eyes, by blood alone she has more claim/birth right to the throne than T3.

But she somehow had to get T3 to acquiese and that seems to be the big mystery to me. What kept him from denouncing her when he came of age? Was he afraid of civil war for the sake of the country? Equally hard to believe given self interest adn the notion he is the son of a god. Yes, she had the priests behind her, but if he won in a political struggle, he would have the wealth of the country to buy them off.

An odd affair....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maahes
Account Suspended


Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 231
Location: Sepat Pa Maahes

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:05 am    Post subject: ? Reply with quote

Hapshepsut was an heiress of Tetisheri/Ahmose-Nefertari. Since her marriage legitmized her heir apparent's ascendency why this compulsion to equate 18th Dynasty Egyptian matrilineal Tribal soveriegnity with very recent European patriarchal monarchy?
_________________
"O Egypt, Egypt, of your reverent deeds only stories will survive, and they will be incredible to your children! For divinity goes back to heaven, as Egypt will be widowed and deserted by god and nature."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What seems an even bigger puzzle to me is why T3 waited so long to take any action against H--isn't it nearly 20 years?
The length of time is even more fuel in the fire of an action that was not taken by T3, but by his advisors and court. Trying to stomp out H's very existence seems to be an effort to impose the rule of Ma'at. In the normal order of things, a male son became Pharaoh--women could not rule. H had flaunted this concept, so any evidence of her radical actions had to be removed.
But just what was their relationship? Why did T3 go placidly along with her rule? We probably will never know, for sure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VBadJuJu
Priest
Priest


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T3 excised a few things right after she died but he left a temple bearing her name, likeness etc standing at Karnak for 20 years. Then came the systematic removal of her reign.

It is truly puzzling why he didnt take any action against her to claim sole possession of the throne though. That he took 20 years to remove her would seem to indicate it didnt bother him too much. Kinda goes against human nature, but its possible.

I am not convinced that the later excising was simply because she was female though. Other women had ruled as regents and even alone briefly and were praised for it. The disruption to maat, seem to be a co-regency, for this opens up all sorts of problems as to succession if it is allowed to happen regularly.

* What if she had remarried? Would new hubby supplant T3 as king?
* What if she had a son? Whose lineage would take precedant?
* What if T3 had died first? Who would succeed them?
* If they were closer in age, which would be allowed to name a successor co-regent? Could you have a 3rd co-regent?
* What if they both had offspring? Which line would be more royal? Could they be trusted to do something like marry the kids to each other? What if they both had sons? Might that not lead to a succession struggle?


Most importantly, what if 2 future co-regents did not get along? Might that not lead to civil war, a very un-maat like event?

More basically, is it right for her to have done what she did?

I am sure there were those at the time who were simply against he idea of a woman ruling. But given that the most recent Intermediate Period and strife was not a very distant memory, the impact on succession seems a far more profound concern than her gender.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maahes
Account Suspended


Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 231
Location: Sepat Pa Maahes

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

evidence of her radical actions had to be removed.

This is incorrect. Please have a careful look at the most recently and generally accepted King's list. Carefully remove the first and seventh king of each dynasty. Write down who their mother's were and who succeeded them.

THis notion of females being radical in the ruler's world is anectdated and based on presuppositional bias of early Egyptologistis who were almost without exception European elitists with more than a healthy share of chauvinism. Their working conditions in Egypt obliged them to make parters and servants of the indigenous Upper Egyptians and Saite's laborers and their disdain for dark skinned people and the rib begotten gender were unambiguous.

Hapshepsut was born of an ancient matrilineal line of female power that began with Meri Neith in the first dynasty and continued well in to the twelfth dynasty. Only the clans of the Sobek and Dakhla/northern oasis were as prominent. They that is the women themselves were living personifications of the throne that was Astet, Neith or Sekhmet.
_________________
"O Egypt, Egypt, of your reverent deeds only stories will survive, and they will be incredible to your children! For divinity goes back to heaven, as Egypt will be widowed and deserted by god and nature."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBad has said:
Other women had ruled as regents and even alone briefly

I think the key-word in this statement is "regents". It is true that other women ruled, but always as regents or queens. Hapshepsut was the first, and as far as I know, the only woman who named herself a male Pharaoh.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VBadJuJu
Priest
Priest


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
It is true that other women ruled, but always as regents or queens. Hapshepsut was the first, and as far as I know, the only woman who named herself a male Pharaoh.


Well let's see, there was Queen Pharoah Sobeknefru, 12th Dynasty. There is a body of evidence to suggest that Meryt-Neith may have been queen regnant, not just wife/consort.

King Ahmose's mother Ahhotep may have been active briefly after the death or illness of Sekenere: "She has looked after he (Egypt) soldier's, she has guarded her, she has brought back her fugitives and collected together deserters, she has pacified Upper Egypt and expelled her rebels."

Then there is the sketchy figure of Nitocris at the end of Dynasty 6. Later there would be Twoseret.

I am not saying that it was common or didnt raise eyebrows, but Hattie wasnt the first. It seems obvious to me that as a practical matter a far greater crime than being female was being an usurper and the ramifications dual kingship brings.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VBadJuJu
Priest
Priest


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maahes wrote:
evidence of her radical actions had to be removed.

This is incorrect. Please have a careful look at the most recently and generally accepted King's list. Carefully remove the first and seventh king of each dynasty. Write down who their mother's were and who succeeded them.


Do I understand your point to be that Hattie was not hammered out in antiquity, but removed by the light skinned European rascals?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maahes
Account Suspended


Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 231
Location: Sepat Pa Maahes

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not taking that faluca. Yes Maatkare was excised by conservatives who were threatened by her memory. Europeans missed tribal Egyptian sinews and tendons because they had a hearty disdain for the Upper Egyptians they came into contact with They also showed a great deal of disrespect to women including European women.

THe notion that women were inferior by virtue of their gender is what Im getting at here not prejudice of specific authors- just the accrued wisdom that has passed down. If anyone is interested in having a look at the first and seventh rulers as I suggested you may be able to appreciate the true nature of ascendancy- it is similar to watching a cyclical appearance of various constellations, but lets not get into a sand throwing fight about Hapshepsut.
Pharaoh was used as a condescending term for the Hyksos kings.
Pharoah was not a man nor a woman it was an equilibrium a house a congress and a senate- it was the house of Maat basically.
THe patriarchal influence of the Canaanites in their recent history and more importantly the lack of female peers in neighboring countries obliged Maatkare to take on the role of sphinx when it was considered a bit outdated at that late date. And yes the patriarchal chauvinism of the Semites had a huge impact on Egyptian society especially given the fact that the founders of the eighteenth dynasty were by and large descended of female matriarchate heiress of sepats and tribal regions with men from many places including Minoa, Nubia or Palestine- I think the Hyksos were basically a rag tag bunch of barbarians or land locked Vikings with a multi ethnical base..
Regardless, the female prize the ultimate treasure was the divine woman a descendant of the Goddess- the males of the twelfth dynasty on were ethnically cleansed from Egypt.
_________________
"O Egypt, Egypt, of your reverent deeds only stories will survive, and they will be incredible to your children! For divinity goes back to heaven, as Egypt will be widowed and deserted by god and nature."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maahes
Account Suspended


Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 231
Location: Sepat Pa Maahes

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amenhotep III was but one of Hatties kin to repair her memory.
Europeans didn't remove her from record that happened at the hands of the Hem Netjer and possibly the Sobekh clan- it certainly occured at the hands of the Ramessese and their Syrian descendants.
Regardless, the issue is tribal origins not gender war.
Hapshepsut was metaphorically speaking the mother of God. She died without producing a son. She also involved herself a bit too closely with Senmut. It is rumored that they removed sacred texts and scrolls and brought them to Ethiopia infuriating Thutmose. But that is an Egyptian Saite myth of unknown significance. Europeans and Modern Day Arabic speaking Egyptians were until recent times staging the pathetic imperialistic froth Aidia at her mortuary complex. And when the massacre of Swiss tourists occured at the exact time and date of an ancient sacred holiday- the birth of Sekhmet's tears and arrows- ie Leonide constellation showers- the entire world missed the significance except for the extremists who understood the importance of removing bits and vestiges of the past from the memory of the present.
_________________
"O Egypt, Egypt, of your reverent deeds only stories will survive, and they will be incredible to your children! For divinity goes back to heaven, as Egypt will be widowed and deserted by god and nature."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VBadJuJu
Priest
Priest


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First you said she wasn't removed due to her radical actions. Now you seem to be saying "conservatives" in antiquity did it for just that reason.

I'm still puzzling out how mother-hating light skinned Europeans, Leonide meteor showers, Canaanites, Swiss Tourists and the Hyksos work into this latest conspiracy, but its very entertaining! Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maahes
Account Suspended


Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 231
Location: Sepat Pa Maahes

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Rolling Eyes
something tells me someone might be searching for an opportunity to bicker.

Please don't make straw men from twisted perceptions of my thoughts on the matter. My assertion stands that Maatkare was a religious figure.

I never went into mother hating Europeans and sense that this is some sort of weird feluca ride into prejudicial thinking that really has no place in my way of thinking.

Im trying to help those that write on this board to see through some of the problematic issues constructed as fact in Egyptology by anectdated views on gender and their refusal to acknowledge East African origins of Egyptian cultures.

The conservatives in Ramessese time were patriarchs as were the Canaanites and as can be clearly seen in the deterioration of the lineages following them- the regency these heiresses deified and not - the influence and power that these matrilineal nomarchies had waned-
As for the extremists murdering the Swiss
the point is that the event took place in a temple dedicated to Hathor and Sekhmet - no one in the press bothered to note the significance of the hateful acts because it is lost to them- the sacred nature of these temple complexes especially is it relates to the long forgotten role of female ancestor worship by the Egyptians prior to Ramessese.
That the travesty took place during the Leonide meteor shower an event of major import to the previous inhabitants and architects of that complex is an irony for Egyptians like myself who find modern Egyptologists and Egyptofiles short on acknowledgement of that which our fabric is made from and big on importation of views and value judgements from patriarchal cultures alien to Egypt.
THere are plenty of European Egyptologists who have worked tirelessly in the opposite direction and you will never find me smiting their contributions for the sake of ethnocentricism.
_________________
"O Egypt, Egypt, of your reverent deeds only stories will survive, and they will be incredible to your children! For divinity goes back to heaven, as Egypt will be widowed and deserted by god and nature."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VBadJuJu
Priest
Priest


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maahes wrote:
Actually something tells me someone might be searching for an opportunity to bicker.


Not at all, just trying to sort out the message in the posts. The signal to noise ratio is a bit high at times.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBad has said:
Well let's see, there was Queen Pharoah Sobeknefru, 12th Dynasty. There is a body of evidence to suggest that Meryt-Neith may have been queen regnant

But don't you see that you've proved my point exactly? As I said before, there have been other women who ruled Egypt, but they always ruled as women. (Queen-Pharaoh, regent, widow of a Pharaoh). Hapshepsut was the only one who took the final, great leap and declared herself to be a man, who just happened to be in a woman's body. In quite a bit of her art-work, she is portrayed as a man. Wheter she really believed this, or it was a clever political move, is a moot point. She seems to have carried it off successfully. She must have been quite a dynamic person--woman or man!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBad has said:
Well let's see, there was Queen Pharoah Sobeknefru, 12th Dynasty. There is a body of evidence to suggest that Meryt-Neith may have been queen regnant

But don't you see that you've proved my point exactly? As I said before, there have been other women who ruled Egypt, but they always ruled as women. (Queen-Pharaoh, regent, widow of a Pharaoh). Hapshepsut was the only one who took the final, great leap and declared herself to be a man, who just happened to be in a woman's body. In quite a bit of her art-work, she is portrayed as a man. Wheter she really believed this, or it was a clever political move, is a moot point. She seems to have carried it off successfully. She must have been quite a dynamic person--woman or man!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group