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Queen Tanedjemet
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, doesn't happen very often, with the time difference, that we're both present at the same time!
When at home I sometimes have problems posting messages. Some technical glitch that I don't fully understand.
I saw your message yesterday, but my computer decided to "act up" just at that moment!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to Nefertari

http://www.touregypt.net/who/nefertar.htm

Touregypt claims that Nefertari was the daughter of Bakenkhons(u), and that her brother Amenmose was Mayor of Thebes.

Can't find anything about Bakenkhons or Amenmose however.
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Touregypt claims that Nefertari was the daughter of Bakenkhons(u),

I hadn't read that before. Only have read that she may have been from the Theben area.
Amazing, they put her in the family of Amenemope, the famous seer of the 20th Dynasty, "the scribe of the Sacred Book".
The 30 chapters of this book is what was later taken virtually verbatim by the Hebrews and called Proverbs.
The name of her 'father' Bakenkhonsu is interesting. Khonsu became the 'son' in the Theben triad along with Amun and Mut. He is a moon God, another aspect of Thoth. The moon cult is, according to Donald A MacKenzie, of greater antiquity in Egypt than the sun cults, and was associated with the agricultural rites. Another related moon deity is Ah, who symbolised a more war like male principal and is found in the well known names of Ahhotep (Ah is satisfied) and her victorious son Ahmose (born of Ah).
I havent been able to find the statue in the Cairo museum Bakenkhonsu is supposed to be mentioned on. He's said to be mentioned also in the Berlin Papyrus, I think I'll download it and see.
All I've found about him on sites is that he lived from the time of Horemheb untill Merenptah - almost a century! He served as High Priest of Amun, First Prophet and head of the Priesthood in the North and South. Was never appointed Vizier, the kings were careful never to give the responsibility of palace admin, public works, or treasury to a powerful priest. Instead he took on temple construction on a huge scale.
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I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Touregypt makes a reference to "The Amenemopet Clan".
Supposedly a highly influential family at court. But they don't give any background information.

You mention Amenemope, the 20th century "wise man". I had not heard of him. Is he connected to this family?

Do you know any more about them? I really can't find much (well to be blunt: nothing) on Bakenkhonsu, or his son Amenmose (Nefertari's brother?)
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You mention Amenemope, the 20th century "wise man". I had not heard of him. Is he connected to this family?

Only from what Touregypt write, they give no evidence to back up the remark. They comment on a 'sage' Amenemope a Viceroy of Nubia under Seti I, name alone is circumstantial evidence really to place the later 'wise man' in this family. But an interesting thought, considering how venerated this later Amenemope became.

Quote:
Do you know any more about them? I really can't find much (well to be blunt: nothing) on Bakenkhonsu, or his son Amenmose (Nefertari's brother?)

Nope no luck either so far, cant find the statue mentioned and have'nt yet looked through the Berlin Papyrus for any clues. Will keep looking, there must be something. Confused
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I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.dabar.org/Sayce/RecordsOfThePast/Vol2/Adventures_sinuhit.html
This goes to a translation of part of the Berlin Papyrus by Prof Maspero and tells the story of the adventures of Sinuhit, a hereditary prince during the 12th Dynasty. Although what I've read does not mention a Bakenkhonsu, it does mention a title we've seen much of: Sole Friend.

Quote:
[1] The Friends occupied the highest posts in the court of the Pharaoh; in the Papyrus Hood of the British Museum they are placed in the seventh grade after the king. They were divided into several groups: the "sole Friends," the "Friends of the Seraglio," the "golden Friends," and the "young," whose exact position cannot he determined. The title continued to he used in the court of the Ptolemies, and spread throughout the Macedonian world (see Maspero, Etudes égyptiennes, ii. pp. 20, 21).


During his time in exile Sinuhit becomes sovereign of the Sittiu - nomadic archers:
Quote:
[2] This introduction includes among the ordinary Egyptian titles that of "sovereign of the country of the SITTIU," or nomad archers of the Sinaitic Peninsula and the adjoining desert. Sinuhit had heen chief of a trihe among them, and even after his return to Egypt, continued to hear the title at the court of the Pharaoh. The fact is a new one, which deserves to be noted by Egyptologists.

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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Sinuhit the same as Sinuhe?

I just bought a book (I'm buying waaaay too many) by Mika Waltari.
She took the Sinuhe/Sinuhit story from the 12th dynasty, and set it during the time of Akhenaten. At least that's what I think she did.
I haven't read the book yet...
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, just different spellings.
Quote:
I just bought a book (I'm buying waaaay too many) by Mika Waltari.

Laughing I'm with you there - its just hard not too.

Finally info on Bakenkhonsu:
Quote:
The Autobiography of Bekenkhonsu

Hereditary prince, count, High Priest of Amon, Beknekhonsu, triumphant; he says:

I was a truthful witness, profitable to his lord, extolling the instructions of the god, proceeding upon his way, performing the excellent ceremonies in the midst of his temple. I was chief overseer of works in the house of Amon, satisfying the excellent heart of his lord. O all ye people, take account in your hearts; ye who are on earth, who shall come after me, in millions of millions of years, after old age and inirmity, whose hearts are versed in discerning worth. I will inform you of my character while I was upon earth, in every office which I administered, since my birth.

I passed four years in extreme childhood.
I passed twelve years as a youth, while I was chief of the training stable of King Menmare.
I acted as priest of Amon, during four years.
I acted as divine father of Amon, during twelve years.
I acted as third prophet of Amon, during fifteen years.
I acted as second prophet of Amon, during twelve years.
He favoured me, he distinguished me, because of my rare merit. He appointed me to be High Priest of Amon during twenty-seven years.

I was a good father to my serf-laborers, training their classes, giving my hand [to] him who was in trouble, preserving alive him who was in misfortune, performing the excellent duties in his temple. I was chief overseer of works before Thebes for his son, who came forth from his limbs, King Ramses II, given life, maker of monuments for his father, Amon, who place him on his throne.

The assistant, the High Priest of Amon, Beknekhonsu, triumphant, made (it).

He says as follows: I performed the excellent duties in the house of Amon, being chief overseer of works of my lord. I made for him a temple (called) Ramses-Meriamon-Hearer-of-Petitions, at the upper portal of the house of Amon. I erected obelisks therein, of granite, whose beauty approached heaven. A wall was before it of stone over against Thebes; it was flooded, and the gardens were planted with trees. I made very great double doors of electrum; their beauty met the heavens. I hewed very great flagstaves, and I erected them in the august forecourt in front of his temple.

I hewed great barges of the Beginning-of-the-River, for Amon, Mut and Khonsu; by the hereditary prince, High Priest of Amon, Beknekhonsu.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources: Inscription of Bekenkhonsu J.H.Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt, part III, §§ 563 to 568


Thanks to Touregypt, whose site I should have checked first, instead of last! Laughing Evil or Very Mad
Interesting but probably unimportant point that between Ramses Meryamun, Nefertari MeryenMut, and her 'father' Bakenkhonsu they cover the Theben triad of AmunRa, Mut and Khonsu.
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Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, just different spellings.
Quote:
I just bought a book (I'm buying waaaay too many) by Mika Waltari.

Laughing I'm with you there - its just hard not too.

Finally info on Bakenkhonsu:
Quote:
The Autobiography of Bekenkhonsu

Hereditary prince, count, High Priest of Amon, Beknekhonsu, triumphant; he says:

I was a truthful witness, profitable to his lord, extolling the instructions of the god, proceeding upon his way, performing the excellent ceremonies in the midst of his temple. I was chief overseer of works in the house of Amon, satisfying the excellent heart of his lord. O all ye people, take account in your hearts; ye who are on earth, who shall come after me, in millions of millions of years, after old age and inirmity, whose hearts are versed in discerning worth. I will inform you of my character while I was upon earth, in every office which I administered, since my birth.

I passed four years in extreme childhood.
I passed twelve years as a youth, while I was chief of the training stable of King Menmare.
I acted as priest of Amon, during four years.
I acted as divine father of Amon, during twelve years.
I acted as third prophet of Amon, during fifteen years.
I acted as second prophet of Amon, during twelve years.
He favoured me, he distinguished me, because of my rare merit. He appointed me to be High Priest of Amon during twenty-seven years.

I was a good father to my serf-laborers, training their classes, giving my hand [to] him who was in trouble, preserving alive him who was in misfortune, performing the excellent duties in his temple. I was chief overseer of works before Thebes for his son, who came forth from his limbs, King Ramses II, given life, maker of monuments for his father, Amon, who place him on his throne.

The assistant, the High Priest of Amon, Beknekhonsu, triumphant, made (it).

He says as follows: I performed the excellent duties in the house of Amon, being chief overseer of works of my lord. I made for him a temple (called) Ramses-Meriamon-Hearer-of-Petitions, at the upper portal of the house of Amon. I erected obelisks therein, of granite, whose beauty approached heaven. A wall was before it of stone over against Thebes; it was flooded, and the gardens were planted with trees. I made very great double doors of electrum; their beauty met the heavens. I hewed very great flagstaves, and I erected them in the august forecourt in front of his temple.

I hewed great barges of the Beginning-of-the-River, for Amon, Mut and Khonsu; by the hereditary prince, High Priest of Amon, Beknekhonsu.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources: Inscription of Bekenkhonsu J.H.Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt, part III, §§ 563 to 568


Thanks to Touregypt, whose site I should have checked first, instead of last! Laughing Evil or Very Mad
So he is an Hereditary Prince who eventually occupied the extremely powerful office of High Priest of Amun, but annoyingly no information on his family or origins.
Interesting but probably unimportant point that between Ramses Meryamun, Nefertari MeryenMut, and her 'father' Bakenkhonsu they cover the Theben triad of AmunRa, Mut and Khonsu.
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Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hereditary prince


Does this term just mean that he belongs to a well known family? Inherited his title of prince from his father?

I did read somewhere that Bakenkhonsu's wife was called Metserger BTW.

The reason I'm asking about the "hereditary prince" part is because on some occasions Nefertiti is referred to as a "Hereditary Princess"
(Temple of Sesebi in Nubia, according to Murnane)
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if either Nefertari or Isis-Nofret, two of the wives of Ramses II were known as Hereditary Princess?
Neither of them claims to be a King's Daughter, and both seem to be fully Egyptian.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to "the Amenemopet Clan":

Breasted mentions an inscription (Abu Simbel???) from the time of Ramses II. The king and at least two of his sons, Amenherunamef and Khamwese, are present.

The viceroy of Kush is named Amenemopet, and is given as the son of Peser.
(I'm using the spelling given by Breasted for all the names.)

Quote:
King's-Son of Kush, Amenemopet, son of Peser, triumphant.

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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the theories are correct, then Amenemopet is:
1. Son of Paser (Viceroy of Kush)
2. Grandson of Taemwadjsy, (Superior of the harem of Amen under Tutankhamen) and Amenhotep/Huy (Viceroy of Kush under Tutankhamen)
3. Great-grandson of Anen, Second Prophet of Amen
4. Cousin of Ramses II by marriage. ( their grand-parents Ramses I and Taemwadjsy were brother and sister in law, through her second marriage to Khaemwese.)

If Bakenkhonsu is related to this Amenemopet clan, then I don't know how. But it is true that Amenemopet came from a very large successful family, so it is within the realm of possibilities.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just looked it up in "The Theban Necropolis part II Royal Tombs and smaller cemeteries" but they are not giving much hint on this princess, apart from her name in Hieroglyphs, that she was a princess, most probably of the 20th dynasty and that she was burried in QV33.

In this book her name is spelled as Tanezem(t)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi welcome! Lovely to have someone new here! #Newbie
She is a bit of a mystery, I've not found any more info on her.
I guess this thread has kinda got wildy off topic Laughing
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