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Queen Tanedjemet
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for looking that up.
I think it's only some German and Dutch websites that have Tanedjemet as a 19th dynasty Queen. I don't know where they got this from.
Some even go further and label her as a possible Queen for Ramses I.

The fact that the literature has her as a 20th dynasty Princess (maybe Queen) makes think that she does come from a later time period.

There's no evidence at all for a Queen Tanedjemet at the early Rammeside court. (Well, there's no evidence of her at a late Ramesside court either..)


Our discussion seems to have gone off on a tangent, and has been looking at the transition from 18th to 19th dynasty.
Besides some erasures of images it does not seem to violent.

The father of Nefertari, wife of Ramses II, was given as Bakenkhonsu of the Amenemopet clan on the touregypt website (they seem fairly dependable in their info).

We got onto that topic because of an item inscribed with the name of Aye on it, suggesting a link between Nefertari and the nobility of Akhmin.

(our discussions have tended to "meander" just a tad Very Happy )
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I did read somewhere that Bakenkhonsu's wife was called Metserger BTW.

I wonder if that was meant to be Mertserger - the cobra goddess. Protector of the sacred Mountain of the Valley of the Kings, and the workers village. Another Theben connection, maybe?

Quote:
1. Son of Paser (Viceroy of Kush)


Do you think that could also be Paser II of the Anen - Prophet Nakhtmin - Minmose line? Or am I getting the Paser's completely screwed up? Confused

I know you asked in another topic (somewhere Laughing )about divorce, and yes divorce was accepted then with no stigma attached. Divorcees could remarry, just as we to today.
You said too about Mutemnebut being older that Mutnodjmet to have a son of Yii's age during Tiye's time - yes I think you're quite right, the years don't add up right. If she was 45 when she died in Yr 13 of Horemhebs reign, that makes her only 32 at her marriage to him. Not old enough at all to have a mature son during Tiye's era. They have to be two different ladies.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:
....I wonder if that was meant to be Mertserger - the cobra goddess. Protector of the sacred Mountain of the Valley of the Kings, and the workers village. Another Theben connection, maybe?


Yes I think that name is supposed to be Mertseger. I didn't know about the Theban connection on that.

Quote:
Quote:
1. Son of Paser (Viceroy of Kush)


Do you think that could also be Paser II of the Anen - Prophet Nakhtmin - Minmose line? Or am I getting the Paser's completely screwed up? Confused


Yes, that's the same Paser. The weak link in that part in the connection between Anen and Taemwadjsy. It would be nice to get more info on her.

Quote:
I know you asked in another topic (somewhere Laughing )about divorce, and yes divorce was accepted then with no stigma attached. Divorcees could remarry, just as we to today.


That's funny, I think I have posted answers in the "wrong" thread too. Laughing
Some of the discussions have sufficient overlap that it has caused some confusion for me. I've had to actually do a search, to find the right thread. Laughing
I was trying to figure out if Mutnodjemet could have divorced, because there were some details that didn't quite work. Nakhtmin's wife seems to have been named Tjuiu (If the General Nakhtmin is the same as the Nakht from the papyrus. I know, mighty big if.) But that would have meant that he could not have been married to Mutnodjemet at the time of his death.


Quote:
You said too about Mutemnebut being older that Mutnodjmet to have a son of Yii's age during Tiye's time - yes I think you're quite right, the years don't add up right. If she was 45 when she died in Yr 13 of Horemhebs reign, that makes her only 32 at her marriage to him. Not old enough at all to have a mature son during Tiye's era. They have to be two different ladies.


I agree. That then also begs the question; Which Nakhtmin is this? If he married Mutemnebut, sister of Tey, then he was Aye's brother in law. This puts him in the same generation as Ay, Tiye and Anen.
Another sibling???? Another distant relative? Or an outsider?
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another sibling???? Another distant relative? Or an outsider?

Father? We don't know for sure that General Nakhtmin is a son of Ay - just someone very close. The Nakhtmin (Tjuiu) featured in the Papyrus is a Royal Scribe and Overseer of the Army - titles comparable to General Nakhtmin.
Alternatively this Nakhtmin is thought, according to the dating of the papyrus, to die during the reign of Ay, could he be the General who marries Mutnodjmet then disappears, allowing Horemheb to marry her?
Is Tjuiu his previous wife rather than a later one?
Laughing Tar pits are taking hold!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to doubt that Mutnodjemet married Nakhtmin (the General) at all. It just seems that that theory requires too much "bending over backwards" to accomodate the details.

As sister of the Queen she did hold a high position at court. She seems to be present in Amarna in the beginning. I don't know when the inscriptions place her at court though.

She must have married at some point. But with her connections it should be someone important.

This leads me to a related question. Nefertiti was a Hereditary Princess. I assume then that Mutnodjemet was as well.

Any idea what that title means? For instance Horemheb was a Hereditary Prince. Does this just mean that they are from important noble families?
Other nobles are described as "Count" so there seems to have been some hierarchy amongst the nobles.

In modern days, usually a Prince/ess is someone connected to the royal family (sometimes quite distant). Does it mean anything like that in Ancient egypt??
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Any idea what that title means? For instance Horemheb was a Hereditary Prince. Does this just mean that they are from important noble families?

I've not yet come across a firm description of what it actually means. There also appears to be some descrepancy as to wether the title is Hereditary Princess or Noblewoman. Nefertari was also a Hereditary Noblewoman.
In the story of Senuhet recounted in part of the Berlin Papyrus, he is referred to as a Hereditary Prince, but the chosen Heir was Senusert, also called Prince and the son of king Amenemhet.
So there was a hereditary prince and a heir - it was the heir Senusert who becomes king not the hereditary prince Senuhet.
The story ends with the return of Senuhet to Egypt where he is recieved as a person of high standing, a familar of the royal family - given a royal apartment, a statue of him carved and gilded, and a pyramid erected for him.
This hereditary prince was obviously no ordinary man but someone the royal family knew well and was quite likely related to.
Senuhet's story dates to the 12th Dynasty, I don't know if the same held true in the 18th, probably it did.
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I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes I think that name is supposed to be Mertseger

If that were the case then I'd expect there could be more to her name, since they didn't name themselves directly after a deity. Mertseger certainly is a different one - a change from all the Muts and Amuns. Very Happy

Quote:
Some of the discussions have sufficient overlap that it has caused some confusion for me. I've had to actually do a search, to find the right thread.

Laughing I sure can sympathize with that!
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I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
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