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Some more KV55 discussion
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ImageOfAten
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:
ImageOfAten wrote:
It seems most of the evidence is still open to interpretation.




One egyptologist notes that nothing in the room has the name Smenkhare on it though the names of others of the Armana clan can be found there. Perhaps as an indicator that learning is no guarentee of clear thinking, this egyptologist insists that the mummy must therefore be that of... wait for it...your hero Akhenaten.

If true, this would means that (y)our hero would have been about 6 when he developed Atenism. This is no barrier to the egyptologist, it is 'proof of the brilliance of Akhenaten'.

To be fair, 2 "magic bricks" were found that did bear the name of Akhenaten which seems to indicate he was there at one time.


--------------

Here is one you WONT like, ImageOfAten.

Some Egyptophile went to the Cairo Museum and had a great time. At some point he ended up outside in back it seems. There, before him, he was astounded to see the sarcophogus of Akhenaten (or at least bearing his name). It was in some stage of reconstruction but seemed sort of neglected. There it sat, in the open collecting cigarette butts and empty spring water bottles.

The guy has a web site - if I can find it again, I'll post it for you.



First of all, who is this Egyptologist you speak of on the KV 55 subject?

Who could possibly be responsible for such carelessness of an sacred ancient artifact?! I do not see how something so uncalled for and disrespectful would be permitted to take place! If it is actually true, I find it hard to believe that it would not have been stolen. Even if was stolen I am sure it would have been better taken care of. Wouldn't this negligence have been reported to a higher authority of the Antiquities organization. However, if this is indeed factual information it really makes me sick. Whatever happened to the notion of respect for the dead!?? Something needs to be done about this, I find it to be an unspeakable criminal act.

Please post the link that you obtained this terrible information from, I want to check it out for myself.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ImageOfAten wrote:


First of all, who is this Egyptologist you speak of on the KV 55 subject?

Please post the link that you obtained this terrible information from, I want to check it out for myself.


His name is Nicholas Reeves. One of his books is "Akhenaten: Egypt's false prophet".

I found the site about Ahenaten's sarcophogus:
http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/amarna/akhenaton/e_akhentomb.htm

It is not like it is setting out on the street, and it has been restored. Akhenaten is sort of like the Rodney Dangerfield of phaoroahs even 3000 years later (cant get no respect...no respect at all).
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it is not setting out in the street but it might as well as be. I bet whoever was in charge of the restoration would not have been to happy about this either. WHY would someone just leave it there to be used as a garbage dump? I have never heard of anything like this happening before it is very disturbing!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but trying to determine who survived whom is a bit like nailing jelly to the wall.

What, are you making fun of the way I've decorated my apartment?


LOL


Quote:

I at least favor a co-regency between Amunhotep III and Akhenaten, but this is something the experts themselves still hotly debate.


I rather like Brier's conclusion on this. Half the Armana letters of which it can be determined the addressee are to that criminal Akhenaten and half to Amenhotep III with 1 to Tut. Even back then reading cunniform was a specialized skill, so once the tablets were transcribed onto portable papyrus, the tablets were of little value. Thus, they were unlikely to have been transported to Armana from the old capital, just as they were not transported out of Armana when it was abandoned.

If we assume that those lost or unreadable were in proportion to those that remain, extant evidence suggests a coregency past the time when the capital moved to Atenville. To detractors of Amunhotep III, this makes him complicit or weak (or both) or perhaos incapacitated in later years with his wayward son eclipsing him.

I dont think it is conclusive, but it makes sense which is a rare commodity in Armana. It also opens the possibility that Smenkhare is a son of Amenhotep or even Crown Prince Thutmosis.


Quote:
Still, though the most popular theory has Smenkhkare surviving Akhenaten for a short time, I remain somewhat unconvinced myself.


I think that is one of the lesser of the mysteries of the close of the Armana period. I've personally always thought that if Smenky had outlived that criminal, as a sole king he would have been afforded better burial treatment. Especially if he was more of a revivalist than an Atenist (dedicating temples to Amun etc). But then, I have a hard time imaging any coregent doing such a thing while Akhenaten was alive.

So, I remain confused. On even numbered days one survived, on odd numbered ones, the other did. LOL


ImageOfAten wrote:
I myself do not understand why Smenkhkare would have even wanted to take the nomen Nefertiti favored since it might confuse the public people


In a different time (ours) and in a culture where names were not magical, you can almost picture someone doing it on purpose to eclipse or usurp someone else.


Quote:
And perhaps there's much more to the story of Smenkhkare than we understand.


REALLY? There's more to Smenky than we know???? (thunks head) LOL

Aside from the putative mummy, there is so little other evidence to support solid notions for ONE Ankhkheperure, that when you chop them up (perhaps artifically) to attibute some to Smenkhare and others to Nerfertiti, both become evanescent.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ImageOfAten wrote:
WHY would someone just leave it there to be used as a garbage dump? I have never heard of anything like this happening before it is very disturbing!


Dont get me wrong I think it is terrible too, but of all the kings for it to happen to, its kinda funny it happens to Akhenaten.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is really kind of ironic after thousands of years more vandalising (in a sense) happened to Akhenaten. Honestly, wht are the chances of that? It is really harsh, it just really bothers me. I wish this kind of ignorance would not happen to any one, especially such a unique and wonderful, one of a kind individual.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ImageOfAten wrote:
It is really kind of ironic after thousands of years more vandalising (in a sense) happened to Akhenaten. Honestly, wht are the chances of that? It is really harsh, it just really bothers me. I wish this kind of ignorance would not happen to any one, especially such a unique and wonderful, one of a kind individual.



Crying or Very sad aww thats beautiful!!
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ELISE
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The KV55 tomb has a mummy which has the names hacked out.


I've read recently that the cartouches weren't hacked out but were removed quite carefully with a layer of the underlying wood neatly cut away too, strongly suggesting that new cartouches were going to be inserted. The face mask has clearly been removed with less care, but given the fact that it was gold this could have been plain theft rather than vandalism. Does just put a slight question mark over the 'desecration' theory maybe....
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, my library doesn't have anything! So most of the time I have to buy the books & videos I want to read/watch used off the internet. I think my library may have the interlibrary loan option but they charge you to use it. I will have to check into it.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ELISE wrote:
Quote:
The KV55 tomb has a mummy which has the names hacked out.


I've read recently that the cartouches weren't hacked out but were removed quite carefully with a layer of the underlying wood neatly cut away too, strongly suggesting that new cartouches were going to be inserted. The face mask has clearly been removed with less care, but given the fact that it was gold this could have been plain theft rather than vandalism. Does just put a slight question mark over the 'desecration' theory maybe....


I wondered where this threadlet wandered off to!

Yes, "hacked out" implies a wanton nature that doesnt apply to any of these acts. When they went after Hatshepsut, they didnt typically detroy the scene but hammered her likeness out out it. Although they dismatled Akhenaten's entire city, depictions of him in Karnak were more like that of Hattie.

Given a nice wooden rishi coffin could be resused by someone else (again) and the value of wood, they would have been careful to stay within the lines of the cartouche as the hacked Wink . Practical even in vengence.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got to the part in Reeves' book where he goes into the discussion that I was so "warned" about on the subject of KV55. I see where his theories do make sense though. The way I see it is there are so many disagreements on the age of the body at death, nothing can be certain or even "most probable". There are so many numbers flying around I cannot even make a rational guess on this. I know that everyone is leaning towards the early 20s theory, I can't accept it so easily since there are as many guesses as there are granules of sand in the desert. The whole thing makes my head so flustered Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ImageOfAten wrote:
I just got to the part in Reeves' book where he goes into the discussion that I was so "warned" about on the subject of KV55. The way I see it is there are so many disagreements on the age of the body at death, nothing can be certain or even "most probable".
But there really aren't 'many disagreements' over the age of the mummy. The concensus of 5 out of 6 examinations over the course of 3 generations has it as aged 18-23 (and tending towards the lower range). There is only 1 examination - a cursory one - which said it was female and only 1 which concluded an age significantly higher than 21 or so.

Somewhere on here is a compliation of the summary results of them.

You may have noticed that he makes the point with italicized emphasis that there is 'no inscriptional evidence that the mummy is that of Smenkhare'. He is right and that is a good point (logically though, who else could it be?). However much later in the book, he employs that very tactic (evidence lacking an inscription) in an effort to "prove" Nefertiti didnt die and was in fact the King Formerly Known as Smenkhare.

I laughed out loud at this footnote in the book I am reading:
Giles wrote:
If one wishes to get a reasonably good review of the history of the discovery and present state of the questions [re KV55], one might best consult Romer for the history of the discovery and Bell for the present state of the questions. Reeves should be used with considerable caution.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But there really aren't 'many disagreements' over the age of the mummy. The concensus of 5 out of 6 examinations over the course of 3 generations has it as aged 18-23 (and tending towards the lower range). There is only 1 examination - a cursory one - which said it was female and only 1 which concluded an age significantly higher than 21 or so.


I absolutely do agree that the mummy is not that of a female. I thought there was one examination that claimed the age was around 25 and another one that claimed a high age of 35! I think I remember this information from one of the many documentaries. I do find it odd that there was not any evidence or belongings of Smenkhare found at all. Shouldn't there at least be something?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ImageOfAten wrote:
I thought there was one examination that claimed the age was around 25 and another one that claimed a high age of 35! I think I remember this information from one of the many documentaries.
Perhaps you did hear that, but it is the lone dissenting conclusion. Summary from a discussion with anneke:
VBadJuJu wrote:
Dr Joyce Filer in 2000, said based on the bones he (it is definitively male according to her) was probably 18-21 with an upper age limit of 25. She summed up her findings saying "it is clear from the evidence that this was a man between the ages of 20 -25 and veering towards the lower end of this age range."

In 1963-1966, Harrison concluded: "...this would place the skull within the early part of the age period of 18 - 22 years."

Derry's examination in 1931 concluded that the remains were male and no more than 23 - 24 years of age at death.

In 1907, Smith concluded an age of more than 23 and no more than 25 years of age (peculiar range).

Aside from the very earliest on site examination, only in 1998 do you get a dissenting opinion. Hussein and Harris concluded an age in the mid 30s.

After the 1998 report, copies of the X-Rays with the name etc removed were sent to a dental surgeon of some sort. Based solely on the dental state, they concluded an age of late teens to early 20's, with early 20s being the best bet.


ImageOfAten wrote:
I do find it odd that there was not any evidence or belongings of Smenkhare found at all. Shouldn't there at least be something?

Maybe there IS evidence but it has all been hacked out or erased and written over. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for pulling that back up again. I wouldn't have been able to find it again. What kind of proceedures did Hussein and Harris use? Is there a detailed report available of their findings?

Quote:
ImageOfAten wrote:
I do find it odd that there was not any evidence or belongings of Smenkhare found at all. Shouldn't there at least be something?

Maybe there IS evidence but it has all been hacked out or erased and written over.


Well we know that for a fact but, what I don't understand is if the lost evidence did read Smenkhare, why were these destroyed if Akhenaten's bricks and other funerary goods allowed to survive and be used?
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