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Amenhotep (Huy) Vizier of Amenhotep III

 
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Amenhotep (Huy) Vizier of Amenhotep III Reply with quote

Vizier Amenhotep (Huy)


Nothing is known about this man's family, there are mounting indications that he was a mighty figure who may even have outranked his well connected colleague Ramose.
Unlike Ramose, his activities are attested on monuments from both north and south, and his titles such as "director of Upper and Lower Egypt" and "Overseer of all the works of the King in Upper and Lower Egypt"
also suggest that his writ ran in both parts f the country.

The most intriguing new revelation about this man, however, is that he owned a tomb in Theban necropolis, which tough badly ruined, was planned on the same expansive scale as the sepulchres of Ramose and other high officials of the time.
This discovery might indicate that Amenhotep was himself a Theban, and it has been suggested that the conventional wisdom be reversed, making Ramose the northern vizier and Amenhotep the southern.

The prevailingly northern focus of Ramose's family might favor this ; but although his career has been seen in terms of the expansion of a Memphite family's influence to Thebes, the case might be just the opposite : the house of Heby, with its connections to the estate of Amon, might itself have been Theban.

It is now clear, moreover, that Amenhotep was involved in the operations at the sandstone quarry at Gebel Silsila East late in Amenhotep III's reign.
With his commissions at Silsila , moreover, and his activities on both Upper and Lower Egypt, Amenhotep might easily be seen as a dominant
"northern" vizier who impinged on his southern colleague's province.

The Organization of Government under Amenhotep III
William J. Murnane

In the article they don't say the number of his Theban Tomb, they only say that the tomb is in the vicinity of the tomb of Amenemhat Surer.

Has anyone more information about this tomb and the number.
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maahes
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Huy from Bahiriya? I remember reading somewhere that his name includes his origins.

HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING HERE:
The twelfth dynasty origns of the Sobeks and the rise of that clans influence over contemporaries that is the older greater clans like the Oryx, Aardvark and Hare . They had already been genetically swamped by the prodiguous Meditteranean Lapwing- The saying "Lapwing threading time( migrating) sleep with the head pointing northwards" the direction from which the culturally imposing raiders came in days of old. The powerful delta peoples were the lapwing and they readily outsourced and outarmed all contenders and since pre dynastic days. The Oryx and Aardvark ( Set) still existed they just lost alot of influence during Memphis or Faiyoum dominated eras. Naturally they prospered when Karnak or Thebes Waset were cultural centers.
Separately - 12th dynasty Faiyoum power centers of supposedly hybrid origin ran parallel with the forementioned and also with the eldest existing clan- one with only limited influence outside of strictly religious matters- the double plume of the western land. The land of the two plume sebkhet the western goddess guarding the amduat.
This area is where the oldest civilization in Egypt emerged. Tens of Centuries later humans had conquered the nile jungles. People lived along its perimeters clinging to it as sole life source. but the old civilizations ie western (Crown of Amen) desert, upper Oryx Egyptians, sand Hare dwellers were still occupied and in many instances, specific families or tribal groups would remain constant so long as cooperation was part and parcel of managing pharaoh's expectations.
Its compelling to me that the western desert clan had a heridtary prince in Amenhotep III's court that lived in the mansion of Sitamun eldest daughter of Thutmose, half sister of Amenhotep III bascially a peer companion or wet nurse to Isis and Nebetah, Tiye's daughters.
Huy is steward of Sitamun and Sitamun is an heiress and a dowager queen of the western land.

But during the 12th through 17th dynasties huge power plays had all gone down in Faiyoum. the double plume were poorly represented during the Hykoso period as they were ethnically cleansed from Faiyoum on at least one occasion during Hykos occupation. The Faiyoum power center was a vacuum of quicksand. Nothing came out from which it came. The crocodile grabs its prey from the depths and wrestles it to drown in horror of its fate. Religiously speaking, Sobek had a chilling effect on Egyptian philosophical discourse=Its cannibilization of conscious the integer scale- the pulse of endeavor the exhaltation of creative terms- sofiatopia.org would do a much brighter assesment of the philosophy of egyptian thought China... Shocked Rolling Eyes :fadein:

!2th Dyansty collapsed followed by teh uncertainty of the long Hykos reticulations - the fighting houses and eventual marriage of Tetisheri's patrilineal clan and Ahmose Nefertari's matrilineal heiress clan drawing seventeenth dynasty to a close. Faiyoum was smoldering ghost town.

By the eighteenth dynasty the reed sea was a pirate paradise. Powerful governors owned land claimed at the expulsion of the Hykos and their Semetic indentured caste administrators. These governors were the brothers of kings or nephews of Hyksos sheiks and so on. After the Upper Egyptians are victoriious in routing the Hyksos and their supporters at least as far as the Delta. - These upper Egyptians and Western Landers
drove the Hyksos out in part. But their influence remained and the Set clan was enobled and powerful even during the eighteenth dyansty. Thebes was a logical place to start anew and much later Malkata had its own moeris.
The Hykos were not an ethnic group but rather pirate barrons escaping the plague and draought of central Asia arriving via the delta, AND djbouti inunni seti-during the end of the bronze age- but who arrives three hundred years after the initial diaspora? the descendants of Hykos pirates and their slaves and endentured servants their enablers and their hanger ons. So that was likley a rag tag bunch of fig pricking rebel rousers. The 12th dynasty saw Minoan and East Indian ( Yemen) refugeess arriving enmasse at different occasions marking harbingers of troubled future- often migrations were followed by instances of utter devestation. These survivors often become ardent followers of the state or most influential religion/powerhouse of the new mother shore. So Semites from Palestine adopted set and did the work of nightfall - alot of hard labor naturally. Aardvarks excavate at night. Yemeites came later and did the same. The Yemenites arrived again a second time during Horemhebs time. Iunni seti -were the indentured servants of both Hyksos and Ramessese. Rich lndowners in Faiyoum kept the refugees from owning land but landlessness leads ot lawnessness.



The Sobek were alot like pre civil war Louisiana- people from all over the world partied and faought for territory in Faiyoum and many cultures had permanent camps there. But when it fell apart it was a catastrophic end time in drmatic jargon. the influence of these pwer elite was felt everywhere regardless of the who the king was or wasn't in their minds. The local economy flourished at times there. But when Thebes Waset became the new center of power it must have had some influence on the pecking order within the Faiyoum power elite. Im going to study all of the notes Sesen and Anneke have provided about officials of the era.

Huy was in place to ascend after Amenhotep III as well was his right. He married Sitamun and one could imagine that this hypothetical couple produced Nefertiti , Bekaten , Smenkhare and Tutankhamun. As was the custom they were raised by the Temple of Min in one of three houses
: lector; per ankh; royal harem if male and under the influence of either three houses if female: Tetisheri the Sobek, Gilukhepha the Mittanian, Tuja steward of the house of Ahmose Nefertari ( Tuja may perhaps be granddaughter of Maihepri the nurse of Hatshepset) .
to keep it straight assign each ranking member of a specific lineage its own piece in a game of senet. These are played against one another until only the leaders or the lector are left standing. In scorpions its piety that survives at the salvation of the pious ( eek) .. Anyway- Amenhotep basically owned or had first right of refusal anything that belonged to Huy including Sitamun. There would likely also be a revolt if Huy was revoked as he had influence in his own kingdom a country outside of egypt and but a vassal of Egypt- and through marriage and blood to Sobeks as well.

So his chilldren were heriditary rulers in their own right but the Thotmose had a strangle hold on the older family of Huy.
Just vague likely superfulous sunday thoughts
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Rozette
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the information, maahes Smile
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Sesen
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really have anything much to add on this Amenhotep sorry. No tomb number for him either. I checked out Annekes list (cheers Annie Very Happy ) and no one really fits the title - that I can see anyways.

The problem is that there are so many men (or woman) going by those names, ie: There is Amenhotep Huy (TT368) but he is Overseer of the Sculptors of Amun, late 18th-19thdyn. Right sort of time period but wrong guy. There is also Amenhotep Huy Kings son of Kush (TT40) but still wrong guy.
I found my bookmarks on Vizier Amenhotep Huy (still no tomb number though) :
http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/chronology/amenhotepiii.html He's mentioned right at the bottom due to 2 statues of his being found at Bubastis.

http://www.virtual-egyptian-museum.org/Collection/FullVisit/Collection.FullVisit-JFR.html?../Content/STO.LL.00929.html&0
This shows his shawabti.

I think Maahes that Vizier Amenhotep is quite a different man to the Amenhotep Huy from the Bahariya Oasis (Dr Hawass 'discovered' them, known as the golden mummies). He was the Govenor of the Northern Oasis (era of Thutmose III) and his tomb is there. His wife was Ourly.

I've heard of theories of Sitamun as Amenhotep III's sister rather than daughter, I've never seen any evidence to support it but I expect its possible. I would have expected her though to have married her brother earlier, as in the case of their father Thutmose IV and Yaret, instead of 30yrs into the reign of AIII. Princesses were not permitted to marry beneath their station and she would have been one of the more senior princesses. Her steward was Amenhotep son of Hapu, he was in charge of her apartments at Malkata etc. I have't yet (emphasize the yet) come across anyone else attested in this position as would be expected if she were in fact an older woman - ie sister of AIII.
I don't know, the jury is still out on that one for me.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the two links and the info Sesen Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:
I don't really have anything much to add on this Amenhotep sorry. No tomb number for him either. I checked out Annekes list (cheers Annie Very Happy ) and no one really fits the title - that I can see anyways.

Very Happy I'm glad the website is being used.
I put it together for myself so that I could do a quick search Wink

Sesen wrote:
There is Amenhotep Huy (TT368) but he is Overseer of the Sculptors of Amun, late 18th-19thdyn. Right sort of time period but wrong guy.

The tomb is interesting. In Porter and Moss it is mentioned that in the hall there is a register showing a Vizier, deceased and men adoring. The Vizier is not named. Would be rather interesting if the Vizier would be the tomb owner. Seems like a stretch though to have an overseer of the sculptors of Amen promoted to Vizier?

The tomb plan in the book only shows a hall. There's an opening labeled as "breach to tomb 123". But I see no evidence of a burial chamber. TT123 belongs to Amenemhet, Overseer of the Granary, Counter of Bread (temp. Tuthmosis III).

Made me wonder if TT368 was abandoned?

It's rather interesting that the hall of TT368 connects to the hall of TT123.
It may be a case where the new tomb just ran into the old one, but TT123 would not have been very old and I would be surprised if the tomb builders didn't know about TT123 when TT368 was constructed. (there's not that much time between T3 and A3.

Sesen wrote:
I've heard of theories of Sitamun as Amenhotep III's sister rather than daughter,....
Her steward was Amenhotep son of Hapu, he was in charge of her apartments at Malkata etc. ....

I have heard too that some have speculated that Sitamun was actually a daughter of Yaret. She would have then have been too young to marry A3 when he came to the throne? But waiting some 30 years seems a bit much Laughing
I have always found it interesting that Sitamun had rather large apartments at Malkata. None of her sisters had their own apartments there to my knowledge. A3 married his daughter Isis in yr 34, but there's no evidence of a palace for her, not any mention of having her own steward (although I suspect she would have had one).
A3's tomb in the King's Valley supposedly had rooms made for the burials of Tiye and Sitamen. So Sitamen somehow held a pretty high position at court. I always wondered why she was treated so different from her sister(?) Isis, who should have held a similar position at court.
It's always possible that they were teated the same, and the evidence has just disappeared, but it looks like they were of a different station.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I read that the name was spelled out meaning western?
If men with this name are active in the court and their name says Im joe from the western land - just hypothetically speaking here- try and imagine anyone named western Amen as heriditary chief of one of the western lands- some of which were administered or controlled by Kushites or Nyala or any number of ethnicities- the western lands were where a son of a royal from say Nyala and the king would be raised as heriditary prince.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really must get one or all of the Porter and Moss volumes, they're pretty much essential reading. The cost has kindof put me off a bit, but I think I'll just have to bite the bullet.

TT368 sounds interesting. If Vizier Amenhotep is in position during the reign of Amenhotep III, I'm guessing early-ish in his reign due to Aperel holding office in the later years.
Just a bit of speculation here : If TT368 had been abandoned, that could point to a jump to a higher position for the owner - quite a jump but I wonder if he were promoted early in AIII if it may have been due to him being connected to the right family at the right time. Perhaps the dead Vizier depicted in the tomb is a relative or a memorable instance in the life of the tomb owner?
Overseer of the Sculptors of Amun, though not in the same league as Vizier, but still a very important position none the same.
Not too much later Nebwenenef would be promoted from relative obscurity to First prophet of Amun by Rameses II.

Sitamun is a bit of an enigma really, there does'nt seem to be a great deal known about her but I would imagine she would have been a most powerful woman. After all she was given Amehotep son of Hapu for her steward - hard to top that guy and in death probably a prime place with the king and Tiye.
She seems to have had a close connection to Yuya and Tuya to have left some personal items in their tomb when, aside from AIII and Tiye, none of Yuya and Tuya's family appear to be represented. I had a look at some of the goods from their tomb and the chair inscribed for Sitamun states her as 'Eldest Daughter of the King whom he loves, Sitamun'. This would make her the senior royal woman under Tiye and I expect in a position above Isis. I guess it would also indicate that the king in question would be AIII, not quite so likely that it would be a left over from Thutmose IV.

Aidon Dodson/Dylan Hilton (Complete Royal Families) mention a stela of her nurse Nebetkabeny found at Abydos, but I have no info on this. Would be interesting to know if there were some other clues as to a date on this stela.

maahes, with regards to his name, if you click on the image of the shabti in the link you get a clearer look at the text. It does look like the piece we need is damaged.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Aidon Dodson/Dylan Hilton (Complete Royal Families) mention a stela of her nurse Nebetkabeny found at Abydos, but I have no info on this. Would be interesting to know if there were some other clues as to a date on this stela.


In Porter and Moss (Vol 5) it says that the stela shows Nebtkabny (their spelling) nursing Princess Sitamun. But the stela is dated as temp. Tuthmosis III. I think there's maybe another Sitamun dating to that earlier period?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear thats a pain that they conflict like that.
Dodson (not sure if I can trust him now Confused ) lists a Sitamun (Gods Wife, Kings Sister and Kings Daughter) as a daughter of Ahmose I and Ahmose Nefertari. She was reburied (what was left of her) in the cache DB 320. He does list her in a 19th dynasty scene titled Lords of the West (a whos who lineup of royals) from TT 359 Inherkhau. See pg 123.

There is also the later Sitamun, a daughter of Rameses II.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomb vizier Amenhotep TT 368 ?????

Found a little bit more info by A. Gordon who discovered the tomb in 1983.

The unfinished tomb of Amenhotep is as yet unexcavated so wether or not it had a burial chamber is, as yet, unknown. The tomb of Amenhotep is adjacent to and perhaps later in date than the tomb of Kheruef. It is in the vicinity of the tomb of Amenemhat Surer, another official of the latter part of the reign of Amenhotep III.
Amenemhat Surer is Theban tomb 48 , than I think the tomb is maybe tomb 58, original owner unknown , temp. Amenhotep III, later taken over during Dyn 20. (only speculation)

Anneke I made from your Theban Tomb List a handy book of 35 pages.
I made front page with your name on it Very Happy
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