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Could Kia be Sitamun?
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waenre
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
I could not find Aldred's reference to Kiya as monkey either, except on Wikipedia. In his book "Akhenaten" I could not even find Kiya in the index.


Check out Aldred's Akhenaten King of Egypt (1988), Thames and Hudson, page 286"

Quote:
But Kiya may not in point of fact have been of Mitannian origin; and the name could be capable of interpretation as derived from Ky, the Egyptian for 'monkey', a suitable pet-name for a 'jolie laide'.


I found several entries for Kiya in the index of Aldred's 1988 book -- you may have his 1986 book.

waenre
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waenre
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waenre wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I could not find Aldred's reference to Kiya as monkey either, except on Wikipedia. In his book "Akhenaten" I could not even find Kiya in the index.


Check out Aldred's Akhenaten King of Egypt (1988), Thames and Hudson, page 286"

Quote:
But Kiya may not in point of fact have been of Mitannian origin; and the name could be capable of interpretation as derived from Ky, [i]the Egyptian for 'monkey', a suitable pet-name for a 'jolie laide'.


I found several entries for Kiya in the index of Aldred's 1988 book -- you may have his 1986 book.

waenre


Oops! The above reference to Aldred's 1986 book should be 1968, fingers typing faster than my brain thinking! Sorry.

waenre
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Waenre, but I have a 1978 Abacus 1972 edition an no page 286. If you could point me in the direction of the Chapter it's in, I would be very grateful.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops! That's 1972 Abacus Edition.

Would be nice if you could edit here. Maybe I'll have st start doing word docs and stop posting directly. Some of my posts might make more sense if I did, I thiink - though no guarantees. Idea
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
I could not find Aldred's reference to Kiya as monkey ...

Aldred`s ideas are very often just from him, with no proof. Nothing against it, as long as he makes this clear for his reader (which he unfortunately does not allways...).

Orwell wrote:
... In his book "Akhenaten" I could not even find Kiya in the index.

Sounds like you have one from the first editions. 1988 was published a revised version, with Kija ... The books differ in the number of pages. The earlier editions have 309 pages, the revised version 320.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Abacus (1972) version as 222 pages. It's title is "Akhenaten: Pharaoh of Egypt." I assume we're talking about the same book? Was the revised version a quite expanded version?
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waenre
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
Thanks Waenre, but I have a 1978 Abacus 1972 edition an no page 286. If you could point me in the direction of the Chapter it's in, I would be very grateful.


Page 286 is in Chapter 24 -- The Last Years of Akhenaten, in Aldred's 1988 book, Akhenaten King of Egypt.

An interesting article on Kiya:

New Light on Kiya from Texts in the British Museum
C. Nicholas Reeves
Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 74 (1988) pages 91-101

In the above article (footnote 1), Reeves cites W. C. Hayes, The Scepter of Egypt, 11 (New York, 1959), 294:

"In the twenty-nine years since Kiya's existence was first noted in print by Hayes..."

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quoted from article by Arris. H. Kramer: Enigmatic Kiya. (Thanks for pointing out article, waenre).


“The same year, however, a surprising development occurred. Based on a new and detailed “autopsy” of the goldn sarcophagus trough from KV55, it’s typology, iconography, and six inscriptions, Grimm concluded that the sarcophagus was originally made for Akhenaten rather than Kiya, and that it was used, after becoming obsolete for religious reasons, for Smenkhkare. He found no reason to presume that the uraeus and royal beard on the sarcophagus are secondary, and pointed out that the several so-called alterations in the gold foil are optical illusions. The special form of the “Nubian wig” that appears on the sarcophagus does not point to a female per se, but is attested for Ahkhenaten. And the female speaking in the text at the foot-end is, by analogy with other coffins, not a female coffin owner, but the wife of the coffin owner (the dead king), speaking to him in her role as Isis, wife of Osiris. In the five other inscriptions, Akhenaten’s epithets occur in the form in which they also occur in Kiya’s vases.

If these conclusions are correct, we now

have Akhenaten's sarcophagus in KV55, along with his magic bricks.

Does the above quote suggest Kiya 'made' the sarcophagus for Akhenaten? That would make her alive at the time of Akhenaten's death, wouldn't it?

The only problem we have - if we like the KV55 mummy as Akhenaten theory - is the suggestion Smenkhkare is the mummy. This idea exists because "Smenkhkare" is inscribed somewhere, and the body at death was only about twenty years old. This age business is questioned by Hawass and some of his compadres. Are we so sure Hawass is so wrong?

It seems that the experts who have the most recent direct access to the tombs and mummies etecetera are the ones who are getting things wrong. What if they're not, though?

If it is Akhenaten, what is the significance of having "Smenkhkare" on the sarcophagus? Even if the sarcophagus was not used by Akhenaten for "religious porposes", why would anyone throw some other Pharaoh's body in there? Bit disrespectful for Smekhkare wouldn't it be? Smenkhkare got his burial but not his own sarcophagus? Were the Egyptian Nobility so impoverished when he died that they could not rustle up a half decent sarcophagus? Tutabkhamen got a fair send off as far as his tomb indicates.

Maybe Smekhkare was another name for Akhenaten or something???
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smenkhkare was not akhenaten. and i have not heard of the coffin being made for akhenaten. and i'm sure the texts have kiya's name somewhere, as her title is used.

i get the impression the burials goods for tut were either spares, from previous burials, or actually taken from the amarna burials when they were moved.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe Smenkhkare was another name for Kiya? Grimm in quoted article suggests she was performing the role of Isis at his burial - or does he? His conclusions lead me to think so anyhow. Smile
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Kyle. Should read "Grimm in quoted article suggests she was performing the role of Isis at his (Akhenaten's) burial...." Sorry for the ambiguity.

As to removal of grave goods from Amarna to KV55. Why bother? I'm a cop, and motive is always of interest to me.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... and i have not heard of the coffin being made for akhenaten. and i'm sure the texts have kiya's name somewhere, as her title is used. ...

No they do not have Kija`s name and title. See for that :

Alfred Grimm / Sylvia Schoske : Das Geheimnis des goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit. - [Veröffentlicht anläßlich der Sonderausstellung "Das Geheimnis des Goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit", München,Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 17. Oktober 2001 bis 6. Januar 2002]. - München : Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 2001. - ISBN : 3-87490-722-8. - 162 p.

For text history and interpretation see pages 106 - 114.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz I don't think me looking at Das Geheimnis des goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit will help much. You know, because of the decided lack of German I mentioned somewhere. Laughing

Is the point you make, Grimm's yet another 'expert' who has it wrong?
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are both Kiya and Nefer-ti-itti attested to by grave goods? Is either of them actually named?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have fragments of an ushabati belonging to Nefertiti and the canopic jars found in KV55 are attributed to Kiya on complicated epigraphical grounds, like the coffin.
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