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baketaten
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: baketaten Reply with quote

Baketaten is a princess associated with Tiye at Amarna.

In Lepsius's book there is a drawing depicting a baketaten, but this one is depicted as an adult!
http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/books/2003/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061000.jpg

I couldn't post the image because it's waaaay to big. But if Baketaten is depicted here as an adult, then the eldest daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti may also be older than we think.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This still puzzles me. I have only ever seen line drawings of the scene where a statue is made of Baketaten. In the modern drawings she's depicted as a girl with a side-lock. In this drawing she has long hair.
In other inscriptions Baketaten is shown as roughly same age as the eldest Amarna Princesses. If the Princesses were also older than we think, then we get a stronger argument for a co-regency I think.

It's a lot to base on one line drawing, but I got the impression that the work in Lepsius' Denkmahler was considered very accurate.

Any thoughts?

Laughing Considering my experience with looking for certain persons, it's always possible this is a different scene and there were two Baketatens Laughing
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Hathorhotep
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm interested in beauty of ancient princesses - were Nefertiti's daughters beautiful (as Ankhsenamun) or no?
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is baketaten Amenophis III and Tiye's daughter? And born after the 'change' to Atenism while Amenhotep III was still alive? Or was her name changed 'after' the 'change' to Atenism?

If she is their daughter:

Is she the only daughter of Amengotep III and Tiye to live at Akhetaten?

Could she be Younger Lady KV35? A quite a lot younger sister of Akhenaten, maybe, about Meritaten's age?


Could she be the Lady who (apparently) died in child birth depicted on the walls of the Amarna Tomb with Akhenaten and Nefertiti shown mourning her death?

I think I saw this 'death in childbirth' idea raised in "Nefertiti"by Joyce Tyldesley. I think she guesses the deceased as someone else from memory. Could it be one of Akhenaten's "Lesser Wives", i.e. his little "Sister", Baketaten? (KV55 mummy and YL KV35?)

Idea

If there are citations to all this wild speculating somewhere, please let me know, guys. I'm happy to look them up. Very Happy


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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jpyce Tyldesley "Nefertiti, 205 Edition pp. 162-163. She theorizes the death of "Kiya".

But why not "Baketaten"? Tiye's daughter. Akhenaten's sister and otherwise unrecorded "Lesser Wife"? She would not have to be Meritaten's age (thereabouts). She could be quite a few years older. Nefertiti as Akhenaten's Chief Wife would be Mother of the firect heirs (Meritaten etc), but Beketaten's son, Tutankhamen, would certainly be a strong potential heir.

Beketaten appears to be stronly linked to Akhetaten, and Akhenaten, and Tiye. There is even at least one depiction of them together in Akhetaten, isn't there?


Remember guys, just an "idea" - not exactly a 'theory' yet. But it does seem kind of neat. I mean, Beketaten might not even have been listed on a monument as a "Lesser Wife" before she died? Even Hawass couldn't disagree with all this, could her?

And I'm sure someone's already posited the idea somewhere. So, point out the citation as I couldn't find it before I posted. Smile



NB Old Mad Velikowski even suggested that Akhenaten had a child with Tiye! That would make him both her Father and her Brother, wuldn't it? Mmmm...? I think I'll stick on my crash helmet and body armour now - just in case.

Wink
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: baketaten Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Baketaten ... princess associated with Tiye at Amarna. ... In Lepsius's book there is a drawing depicting a baketaten, but this one is depicted as an adult! ...

This scene comes from the North wall of Northern tomb no. 1., for the Overseer of the Royal Harim and of the Treasuries, and Steward of the Great Royal Wife Tiye, Huya. Here is the description from Norman de Garis Davis : Rock Tombs of El Amarna III (1905), page 14 :
Quote:
"... The workshop is a room with two(?) columns supporting the ceiling and having a little inner sanctum partitioned off for the master's use. Here is "the overseer of sculptors. (lit. 'vivifiers') of the great royal wife Tyi, Auta." He sits on a low stool, palette in hand, busily engaged in giving the last touches in paint to a statue of Beketaten, the daughter of his royal patroness. She is represented as a young girl, and the pomegranate(?) which she holds in her hand may be meant as a symbol of nubility. It is interesting to see that the artist, though a sculptor himself, depicts, not the actual statue, but the idea in the artist's mind of the graceful body of a girl lightly robed. Obviously the figure could not be at once nude and attired in spreading robes; and there is little doubt that in fact the statue was treated as usual, the robe being gathered tightly round the body, so as to show the form as much as possible. Small as the figure is, dimples on the neck have been indicated. ..."

The line drawing by de Garis Davis of this scene shows the statue of the princess as usualy with side curl.

Even if the drawings of the Lepsius-Expedition are very accurate they are not generally free from errors. I have noticed several over the years. And if you have a look at the drawing there is to say that this hair-style is otherwise for secure not attested for female members of the royal family in Amarna.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
Is baketaten Amenophis III and Tiye's daughter? And born after the 'change' to Atenism while Amenhotep III was still alive? Or was her name changed 'after' the 'change' to Atenism? ...

One does not know nothing in detail. She is a king`s daughter and close connected to queen Teje. Thats all.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Is baketaten Amenophis III and Tiye's daughter? And born after the 'change' to Atenism while Amenhotep III was still alive? Or was her name changed 'after' the 'change' to Atenism? ...

One does not know nothing in detail. She is a king`s daughter and close connected to queen Teje. Thats all.

Greetings, Lutz.


The books I've looked at all seem confident Baketaten is daughter of Tiye and Amenhotep III (Aldred, Akhenaten; tyldesley, Nefertiti; Desroches-Noblecourt, Tutankhamen).

It seems a more than reasonable theory.

The poor girl is even 'tainted' with an Atenist name. And on a cursory look she was quite young when Akhenaten became Pharaoh, so he may have taken her to wife (so to speak) long after Nefertiti (God's Wife?) was bearing his daughters as potential 'heirs'.

If Hawass' DNA evidence is correct, and the mummy in KV55 is Akhenaten, the Younger Lady KV35 mummy is his 'sister' and Tutankhamen is their son - well, isn't it a reasonable theory that the Younger Lady mummy is Baketaten?

Even Wikipedia suggests the possibility! Laughing
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orwell wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Is baketaten Amenophis III and Tiye's daughter? And born after the 'change' to Atenism while Amenhotep III was still alive? Or was her name changed 'after' the 'change' to Atenism? ...

One does not know nothing in detail. She is a king`s daughter and close connected to queen Teje. Thats all.

Greetings, Lutz.


The books I've looked at all seem confident Baketaten is daughter of Tiye and Amenhotep III (Aldred, Akhenaten; tyldesley, Nefertiti; Desroches-Noblecourt, Tutankhamen). ... Even Wikipedia suggests the possibility!

Prettily ... Only, where are the archaeological proofs for the statements?

Greetings, Lutz.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plausible 'ideas' only when placed against the little I know from the few books and internet articles I've read. Maybe as I chip away some archeological evidence will support my positings, Lutz.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since Baketaten is the only daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye known to have been at Akhetaten she strikes me as a good candidate for KV35YL and Tut's mother. It would certainly be simpler if KV55, Tut's father, was Akhenaten because certainly there would be nothing unusual about him taking a sister as a secondary wife (appropo of that there is a wine docket indicating it came from the estate of a lady titled simply 'The King's Wife'. Nefertiti and her daughters all owned estates in their names and Kiya's was known as the estate of the Favorite so this is an unknown lady wife who *could* have been Baketaten.

However as I have made clear I am not comfortable with the special pleading necessary to make the KV55 remains of a suitable age for Akhenaten which in turn indicates a more complex story. Possibly a deliberate strategy on the part of Queen Tiye to create an alternate line of succession by marrying her youngest son to her youngest daughter?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:

Prettily ... Only, where are the archaeological proofs for the statements?

Greetings, Lutz.


Baketaten is invariably shown associated with Tiye rather than Nefertiti and her daughters. This includes a rather famous door lintel showing both Tiye and Baketaten adoring the figure of Amenhotep III opposite. Baketaten is titled 'Kings' Daughter' but to my knowledge *which* king is never named.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: baketaten Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Baketaten is a princess associated with Tiye at Amarna.

In Lepsius's book there is a drawing depicting a baketaten, but this one is depicted as an adult!
http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/books/2003/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061000.jpg


I get a "404" response when I try to go to this image. Can you give a better URL?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: baketaten Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
anneke wrote:
Baketaten is a princess associated with Tiye at Amarna.

In Lepsius's book there is a drawing depicting a baketaten, but this one is depicted as an adult!
http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/books/2003/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061000.jpg


I get a "404" response when I try to go to this image. Can you give a better URL?

Not only you ... I think the system in Halle did not allow this way. Had this several times before.

Take this : http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/

From there, on the left : "Tafelwerke ---> Abteilung III ---> Band VI ---> Blatt 100". The "Blatt" (plate) is labeled "Nördl. Gräbergruppe. Grab 7", the drawing is labeled with "a".

Greetings, Lutz.
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Orwell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Since Baketaten is the only daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye known to have been at Akhetaten she strikes me as a good candidate for KV35YL and Tut's mother. It would certainly be simpler if KV55, Tut's father, was Akhenaten because certainly there would be nothing unusual about him taking a sister as a secondary wife (appropo of that there is a wine docket indicating it came from the estate of a lady titled simply 'The King's Wife'. Nefertiti and her daughters all owned estates in their names and Kiya's was known as the estate of the Favorite so this is an unknown lady wife who *could* have been Baketaten.

However as I have made clear I am not comfortable with the special pleading necessary to make the KV55 remains of a suitable age for Akhenaten which in turn indicates a more complex story. Possibly a deliberate strategy on the part of Queen Tiye to create an alternate line of succession by marrying her youngest son to her youngest daughter?


Would Akhenaten have stood by and allowed that to happen while he was alive? Wouldn't it have been more in his interests to marry the gal himself and try to beget a son? Didn't sidters and daughters generally get absorbed into the King's harem? Or did they blithely parcel out thir Royal Sisters to their younger brothers? Not impossible - nothing is - but it doesn't wash somehow. Not hile he was alive anyhow.

(I could be wrong, of course...Lutz? Laughing )
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