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Ankhesenamun and Satre
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Smartie
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:32 am    Post subject: Ankhesenamun and Satre Reply with quote

I've been getting information on the fact that Ankhesenamun could have been Satre the wife of Ramesses I.
The meaning of Satre's name is "Daughter of Sun God" which would make sense since she would have been the daughter of Akhenaten. I've also heard that more scholarsd are accepting this theory. I'm sure we all know that Rameses II was one of the main people who destroyed as much memory as he could of Akhenaten. This might not have been promted by his own anger, but maybe by the push of a grandmother who wanted to get rid of the hurt and horror of her past?(not saying she was alive during this time but maybe had taught her son Seti to erase as much as he can, and therefor he told his son)
The story of Horus and Isis comes to mind when thinking of this.

Has anyone else heard this thoery forgive me if it has been posted I searched but it's late here and my eyes aren't working as well Shocked
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard of the theory before, but I don't think it's gaining acceptance. Smile

Sitre is a bit of an enigma. On the 400 year stela the mother of Seti I and wife of Ramses I is called Tia. Some have pointed out that one of the daughters of Ramses II was named Tia-Sitre. Some have speculated that Tia was renamed Sitre when her husband became king.

I think it would be more logical if Ankhesenamen had retained her name Ankhesenamen. She already renamed herself after the Amarna period.
Being the wife of Tutankhamen, I'm not sure why she would have need for another name.

I don't see her as a good candidate for a Ramesside Queen either. At this point in time she would have been at least 50 and she was never in a place of prominence or importance during the reign of Horemheb. So why take this old Queen out of the moth balls?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never heard of this interesting theory but, as Anneke has stated Ankhesenpaaten/amun would have been pretty old by Egyptian standards and I do not see why the king would choose an older queen. Even if true I do not think that she would have had a hurtful and horrific past. She was the daughter of a king, her childhood was probably great!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if Ankhesenamen was Sitre and was the mother of Seti I, then she would have had to marry Ramses quite soon after she became a widow.

Seti may have even been born during the reign of Tutankhamen from what I have read. So that makes it even more unlikely.

And even if Seti was born during Horemheb's reign, I don't think that Horemheb would have allowed an ex-queen to marry one of nobles. Considering that Horemheb wasn't royal himself, that would have possibly given Ramses more of a claim to the throne than the king himself.

Ankhesenamen seems to have disappeared from the scene right after Aye came to the throne. My guess would be that she died.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but Anneke we have seen with many pharaohs, there children are never important after the new pharaoh has beein assigned. Then his children and wives are more put in relics not his sisters. Just because Ankhesenamen was not in reliefs does not mean she died. A lot of people try to add murder into the amarna period(not saying you but in general). She seems to disappears not long after aye's reign begins. If we look at it differently we can see Rameses I marrying Ankhesenamen during the beggining to end of Ays' reign. That would give us a Seti I fo the age to assume the throne. and if she would return to her name Ankhesenamen she'd be connecting herself to a dead king! it would make sense to change her name. Akhenaten changed his name when he became pharaoh, or some where around that time. The point is she wasn't important, she could have easily slipt away from the spotlight. She wasn't old, if we go by this theory she would have been around the age of Rameses I. Early to mid 20's.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamen was the reigning queen of egypt. Even if her husband died, she would still have been considered a Queen. There are to my knowledge no examples of a queen marrying a nobleman after the death of her husband. (not in the New Kingdom anyway)
Aye seems to have married Ankhesenamen (according to a ring). So she would not have just married any noble. It's not her position as daughter of a pharaoh, but her position as the wife of a pharaoh which I think makes it unlikely that she married Ramses.
If she did Ramses would have had a better claim to the throne than Horemheb. I don't think Horemheb would have allowed that. It would open the door to political unrest.

And the 400 year stela mentions that Seti's mother is named Tia.
So either Sitre is Tia, or Sitre is not the mother of Seti I.

I think there are people who do question of Sitre is the mother of Seti I. I believe that in her tomb she is never referred to as King's Mother. She's also never referred to as a King's daughter for that matter.

The identity of Sitre is interesting.
It also comes back to something I have often wondered about, which is "Who was Horemheb's wife after Mutnodjemet died?" I always wondered if it was possible that Sitre was actually Horemheb's third wife. Queen Mutnodjemet died in year 13 they think, so that would leave the king without a wife. For quite a while too if the estimate of a 28 year reign for Horemheb is accurate.

I think the problem is that Sitre's monuments are not very forthcoming with information Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm very interesting Anneke. Though Ankhesenamen and Rameses I could have married in secret? I thought the ring with Ay's name on it just represented co ruler. Like a ring for Hatshepsut and Thutmosis III?
Yes Sitre's monuments would help A LOT!

Though funny you mention Horemheb I have recently read, Iset-Nofret maybe being a descendant of his? do you know anything of this?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ay/Horemheb ring was of a sort to indicate a marriage between the two named. I am not sure I have heard of other rings for the many coregents in the 12th and 18th Dynasty (esp Thutmosis and Hatshepsut).

Another tradition in the mix is that widowed queens simply do not remarry. Several were widowed fairly young (like Hatshepsut) but never remarry. Ankhesenamun is the exception of course. But between the Hittite letter and that she was about the end of the blood line, it looks like a marriage of convenience, if not outright forced upon her.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:
The Ay/Horemheb ring


Errr, thats 'the Ay/Ankhessenamum ring'. They were not Siegfried and Roy.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smartie wrote:
Though funny you mention Horemheb I have recently read, Iset-Nofret maybe being a descendant of his? do you know anything of this?


I have read about some speculation that Nefertari may be a descendant of Aye and Iset-nofret a descendant of Horemheb.

Nefertari may be the daughter of the High Priest of Amun Bakenkhons. I have heard that there is a statue of his in the cairo museum making this claim. Bakenkhons may have been related to the Akhmin clan (Yuya, Tuya, Aye etc.) It's interesting for instance that there was a large statue of Nefertari's daughter Meryetamun which stood at the temple at Akhmin (the famous statue of the white queen).

In Horemheb's tomb in Saqqara they found shabti figures of Princess Bentanta, the daughter of Queen Iset-nofret. They are blue faience shabtis and they are depicted in a book by G.T. Martin called Hidden Tombs of Memphis. The fact that Princess Bentanta apparently had these figures dedicated at Horemheb's tomb has led to the speculation that there was some family relation there.
I'm not sure if it really means that Smile The sister and brother-in-law of Ramses II had themselves buried right next to the temple tomb of Horemheb in Saqqara. It may just be that they wanted to associate themselves with the man they saw as the founder of their dynasty.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun also writes to Supiluliumas that she will not mary a servant of hers after Tut's death. Whether this is Ay Horemheb or Ramese it's clear she was looking for alternatives.

I'm most intrigued by an Amarna princess depicted as a wife on an Ugarit vase shard for Niqmed II. I understand Egyptian princesses NEVER married out of the country! Could Ankhesenamun have been the exception after Tut's death. Ridding the country of her would rid it of the final vestige of Akhenaten's line. Who else might it be?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ankhesenamun also writes to Supiluliumas that she will not mary a servant of hers after Tut's death. Whether this is Ay Horemheb or Ramese it's clear she was looking for alternatives.


It is most likely that Akhesenamun was the one who did write these letters, however it has also been suggested that they were written by Nefertiti after Akhenaten's death.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There are to my knowledge no examples of a queen marrying a nobleman after the death of her husband.


Yes, this is stretching it a bit. And keep in mind that during the reign of Ay, Paramesses (to be named Ramesses Menpehtyre only upon his ascension, some 30 years later) was not even really a nobleman but a simple high-ranking military officer. There is a distinct difference. It was the general and vizier Horemheb who would initiate the royal emplacement of career military men, starting with himself.

As you pointed out, it would be quite a leap downward for a widowed queen to marry a commoner under any circumstances. There is just no evidence to suggest such a thing happening to Akhesenamun. We have no concrete proof whatsoever of what happened to her by the beginning of Ay's reign, other than the letter to Supiluliumas; and as ImageOfAten reminded us, the experts still disagree on whether it was Ankhesenamun who penned this, or Nefertiti. But it's because of Ankhesenamun's sudden and mysterious disappearance that people are free to make conjectures about what happened to her.

Goodness, that nutty Amarna Period and the intrigue that followed! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
and as ImageOfAten reminded us, the experts still disagree on whether it was Ankhesenamun who penned this, or Nefertiti


That's not true from what I have read. Dr Van Hout (a world renowned hittitologist) has written an article (in Dutch) in which he makes reference to a last letter in the exchange which shows Aye to be on the throne after the whole Dahamunzu affair. I don't think there's any change that Nefertiti survived all the way to the end of Tut's reign.
So I think that given that last letter, there's not much room for interpretation.

We discussed this a while ago and I gave the translations of the last (6th letter) here:
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=700&start=0
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think there's any change that Nefertiti survived all the way to the end of Tut's reign.
So I think that given that last letter, there's not much room for interpretation.



Even if Nefertiti did survive through Tut's reign, I don't think she would have any reason to remarry.
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