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Horemheb
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: Horemheb Reply with quote

I was putting together one of my "fact files" for Horemheb.

For as far as his monuments go I know about his temple tomb at Saqqara, tomb KV57, the great Speos in Gebel el-Silsila, and some smaller building projects.

Anything important missing?

I know there are some important documents from his reign which describe some new laws which are meant to curb some abuse of power by officials, and his coronation description.

Any other important inscriptions?

Finally his court officials. I have found it surprisingly hard to find officials of his.

Do any of you know who his Viziers were? The High Priests of several cults? I have Parenneder as HP of Amun, but no one else.

Other high ranking court officials?

This is what I have found so far:
Quote:
Court officials:
Ipay, Royal butler, Temp Tutankhamen - Horemheb.
Found by the Universities of Waseda and Tokai expedition in Dashur.
The tomb was probably reused under Ramses II by the royal scribe Mes.
Pa-atenemheb, Royal Butler, Time of Tutankhamen to maybe Horemheb.
Mother: Merytptah; Wife: Tipuy; Children: 2 unnamed daughters.
Known from a tomb-chapel in the Museum in Leiden. The chapel is the middle one of three cult-areas from the back of the tomb.
Raia, Overseer of the Horses, Fanbearer on the right of the King, (later) Overseer of the royal apartments of the King's private apartments in the Harem of Memphis, etc. Time of Horemheb - Seti I (?)
Found by the expedition in 1994.
Parents: Pay and Repyt; Brothers: Nebre and Mahu.
Roy, Royal scribe, Steward of the estates of Horemheb and Amun, Temp. Horemheb (?)Wife: Nebttaui called Towey (TT255.)

Government
Amenemopet: Overseer of the two granaries of Upper and Lower Egypt, Overseer of the treasury of the Lord of the Two Lands, etc.,
Maya, Overseer of the Treasury, Overseer of Works, fanbearer on the right of the King and his wife Meryt, Songstress of Amun, Time of Tutankhamen (even Akhenaten?) - Horemheb.
Parents of Maya: Iuy (magistrate) and Weret; Parents of Meryt: Iuy (magistrate) and Henutiunu. (Half-) Brothers of Maya and Meryt: Nahuher (Royal scribe, High steward of the Ramesseum), Nakht (Scribe of the treasury) and Parennefer (Overseer of the bowmen, Overseer of the horses).
Daughters of Maya and Meryt: Tjauenmaya and Mayamenti.
Paser wasViceroy of Kush during the reigns of Aye and Horemheb. Son of the previous Viceroy of Kush Amenhotep called Huy and his wife Taemwadjsy. We know that his mother Taemwadjsy remarried after the death of her first husband. She married a man by the name of Khaemwaset.
Thutmose, Steward of The Southern City (Thebes), Assistant of Maya. Son of Hatiay and Yuh

Army
Khaemwaset was head of the archers, and he was the brother of Paramessu, who would later reign as Ramses I.
Minkhay, Standard Bearer of the regiment “Beloved of the Aten”. The officer Minkhay is shown in a scene in Horemheb’s Saqqara tomb.
Pahekakha’u, Administrator of soldiers. Shown in the Speos at Gebel el Silsila
Ramose, Troop-commander, Deputy of the Army. Time of Tutankhamen - Horemheb?
Wife: Wina?; Brother: Tjay (scribe)
Sementawy, Army Scribe. Shown behind Horemheb in Saqqara, but his name was replaced by that of Ramose.

Priesthood
Nebwa First prophet of Amun-Re of Pa-ju, son of Huy and Mutnefer(t) Songstress of Amun of Paju [Griffith Inst.]
Neferhotep, Priest ('god's father') of Amun-Ra, (TT50. )
Parents: Amenemonet (Divine Father of Amun) and Takhat (Chief of the harem of Amun).In the tomb we see Maya, the Overseer of the treasury as fan-bearer, followed by the governors of Upper and Lower Egypt before Horemheb. Neferhotep and Parennufer (Divine father of Amun) are congratulated by father. (In year 3 of Horemheb).
Parennefer called Wennefer, High Priest of Amun. Continued from the reign of Tutankhamen. The tomb of Parennefer (TT162) was excavated in Thebes in 1989.


Neferhotep and son Nebnefer, both Foremen in the place of Truth, temp. Horemheb to Rameses II
Wife of Neferhotep: Iymau; Wife of Nebnefer: Iy. (TT6.)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DELVAUX, Luc, Amenhotep, Horemheb et Paramessou: Les grandes statues de scribes à la fin de la 18e dynastie, in: L'atelier de l'orfèvre. Mélanges Derchain, 47-53.
The author studies the two couples of big scribe statues of Amenhotep son of Hapu (Cairo Museum JE 44861 and 44862= Luxor J4) and of the vizier Paramessu, the later king Ramses I (JE 44863 and JE 44864). They have been found placed against the colossus at the Xth pylon of the Karnak temple, probably not upon orders of king Horemheb, who himself also owned sizeable statues of that type. Those of Amenhotep son of Hapu, which belonged to the last great builder under Amonhotep III before the Amarna Age and referred in their texts to his building activities, served as sources of inspiration for the statues of the end of the XVIIIth Dynasty. In this period the great scribe statues were perceived as images of builders, and also as mediators between temple visitors and Amon. The position in which the statues have been found may well be owing to a rearrangement under Ramses II.

Paramessu vizier during the reign of Horemheb.


Gate of General Horemheb at the Louvre

http://www.insecula.com/us/oeuvre/photo_O0006047.html


http://www.insecula.com/us/contact/A001728_oeuvre_2.html

Nubian monument of Horemheb

Small rock-cut chapel of Horemheb at Abu Oda on the opposite bank of the Nile, near the big fortified town of Gebel Adda.
That's all the info that I could find at the moment, anneke Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Rozette Very Happy
That archway of Horemheb is interesting. I first thought it could have been from his tomb at Saqqara, but these reliefs look much more crudde than the ones at Saqqara.

I did realize that the Vizier of Horemheb was Paramessu (the later Ramses I). One of those "duh" moments Laughing

According to the 400 year stela both Ramesses and Seti were Viziers.

I think the following were also active during his reign:
Nebneteru called Tenry. Nebneteru became High Priest of Amun. Nebneteru was married to Merytre, Chief of the Harem of Amun. Their son Paser would become Governor of the Town and Vizier under Seti I and Ramses II.

Ptahemhat called Ty. High Priest of Ptah under Tutankhamen and Ay. Horemheb is shown as heir in Ptahemhat’s tomb.

I can't tell if Ptahemhat would have ben HP of Ptah under Horemheb or if he was already dead.

I'm also thinking that Seti the son of Paramessu must have been in some official position. Towards the end of the reign he would definitely have been old enough. I think he may have been a general in the army?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So where precisely did Horemheb come from?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not known where Horemheb came from. He is determinedly silent about his background.

In his coronation inscription he just mentions he is the beloved of Horus of Alabastronpolis (leading some to speculate that he came from Alabastronpolis, but that's not certain).

He is referred to as "bull of his mother". Amon King of Gods was "the one who brought him up".

He may be the same person as the Paatenemheb from Amarna and he doesn't mention any relatives either.

I have seen speculation that a noble named Neby is his father. If that's true then his mother is called Tausert. Neby was the major of Tjaru during the reign of Tuthmosis IV. He was also a messenger to the foreign lands and a child of the kap (royal nursery) and later an administrator of the harem of the wife of the king. He was quite well connected.


Neby was the son of a priest called Amenemhet and his wife Ta-Tjuia.

I'm not sure why Neby is brought up for consideration as the father.
It is true that Neby had a son Horemheb (and a daughter Meret-hor) and we would have expected to see this Horemheb appear at court.

It seems to me that Neby would have had to serve under Amenhotep III to make Horemheb a contemporary of Akkhenaten and have him still be alive to take the throne all the way after the reign of Tut.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SCHNEIDER, Hans Diederik, The Memphite Tomb of Horemheb, Commander-in-Chief of Tutcankhamun. II: A Catalogue of the Finds. With contributions by C.J. Eyre (Hieratic Documents) and Y.M. Harpur (Old Kingdom Reliefs), Leiden, Rijksmuseum van Oudheden / London, Egypt Exploration Society, 1996 = Excavation Memoir, 60; at head of title: Rijksmuseum van Oudheden in Collaboration with The Egypt Exploration Society. (25 x 32 cm; XXI, 114 p., plans, pl. incl. colour); rev. BiOr 55 (1998), 415-418 (Jean-Luc Chappaz). ISBN 0-85698-131-1

In the Introduction to the present volume, which describes all the finds from Horemheb’s Saqqara tomb destined for the burial of queen Mutnodjmet, the author points out that the denominations of the find-spots of the material catalogued in this book are the same as those used in the first volume devoted to the tomb (AEB 91/1.0285). A few general remarks are made on the character of the site, on provenancing and dating of the objects and on the significance certain (groups of) objects have as documents which provide information, not only on the interments (i.a. Ramesside) which have taken place in the tomb, but also on the special function the building must have had as a cult-place. In fact it was rather a temple where a cult for Horemheb-the-God was celebrated, and the area adjacent to it also became sacrosanct and, consequently, a favourite burial place for the Egyptian elite of several generations. The material found in the Ramesside interments forms a reasonably well-contexted group of finds. This is exceptional, because the majority of the finds in the tomb, both from the superstructure and from the subterranean parts, were discovered in total disarray. The total of objects, including stray finds from the desert surface collected before the excavation started, is subdivided into: O.K. relief blocks and fragmentary pottery and stone vessels; N.K. material from the original equipment or deriving from several other N.K. tombs; late Ramesside or T.I.P. material, such as a few fragments of coffins; Late Period remains of intrusive burials in the chapels and shaft-complexes in the tomb, dating to the 4th and 3rd centuries B.C.; and Christian material. Certain objects among the grave goods belonging to burials in some shafts are of an earlier date than the interments themselves. Apparently they were precious heirlooms produced prior in the reign of Amenhotep III and the Amarna Age. Thus far the expedition has discovered no tombs predating the reign of Tutankhamon, although there is ample evidence for the existence of such monuments on the site. At the end of the introduction the author presents a summary of the main accumulations of objects in the three shaft-complexes, the magazines, and finds from the ‘Coptic Dump.’ The finds from the Memphite tomb of Horemheb also include material from other tombs, which is destined for inclusion in the publication of the pertinent monument (many reliefs and architectural fragments stem from the neighbouring tomb of the Tias. However, the smaller objects originally deriving from that tomb are described in the present volume. The catalogue also contains descriptions of material from other N.K. (mainly Ramesside) provenances, comprising reliefs, fragments of statues and other monuments, and many minor objects. Ch. 1, the catalogue of objects, has a main division in material from the N.K. and the Late Period, and the Coptic Period. The former material includes papyri, ostraca and jar dockets in several scripts (nos. 1-37), figured ostraca and sculptured trial pieces (38-54), stelae (55-5Cool, funerary plaques and miniature votive stelae (59-66), sarcophagi, coffins and funerary furniture (nos. 67-111), canopic jars (112-126), shabtis (127-193), pectorals, scarabs, amulets and beads (194-259), stone and faience vessels (260-300), jewellery (301-314), seal impressions (315-325), objects of daily use (326-334), and miscellaneous (335-343). No. 3 of the catalogue, a hieratic page from the maxims of Ani, is separately studied by C.J. Eyre. It contains Maxims 30-37 (= Pap. Boulaq 4, VII,9-17 - VIII,1). Ch. 3, on the statuary, also includes the listing of those major pieces that have been published in Volume I. In ch. 4, Y.M. Harpur presents a catalogue of the O.K. blocks found in the tomb. The reliefs described in ch. 5 were discovered in the tomb of Horemheb, but derive from other N.K. tombs. They comprise stelae, slabs, blocks and other monumental pieces.
Concordance of excavation nos., register nos. of the Egyptian Antiquities Department and the present cat.nos. Indexes of divine and royal names; of personal and geographical names, titles and epithets in transliteration; of selected Egyptian words and of Coptic personal names and words; and a general index added.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
It's not known where Horemheb came from. He is determinedly silent about his background.

I've hard he was a northerner believed to be from around the suburbs of current Cairo, but I can't remember where I read that. So where's that, Heliopolis?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northern connections would fit in with his sponsorship of the Ramesside family who were also northerners.

The only other hint may come from his coronation inscription where he keeps mentioning Horus Lord of Alabastronpolis as the god who put him on the throne. I think this has lead to some speculation that he himself came from that area.

It is also interesting that he had his temple-tomb built in Saqqara (when he was still a noble) so that also fits with being fro the North. Could point to Memphis and environment.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cairo is a "modern" city erected by Arabic peoples after their conquest of the Middle East in the 6th and 7th centuries AD. Heliopolis was a major cult center for Re and not a village. But there was probably a sizable community nearby where Iunu employees not residing at the temple lived, unless they all "commuted" from Memphis.

I agree with you, anneke. With his original Saqqara tomb and sponsorship of Paramesses, it's more than possible that Horemheb came from the north. He appears to have had deep roots there.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just had a quick look through my notes, will look better later. Not really found anything useful to add to your list, but just to follow on from what you said about (son and future king) Seti having some position during Horemhebs reign. This is from the 400yr stela and therefore lists his later titles, but some he must have held under Horemheb. Ones such as Royal Scribe and perhaps some of the military positions?

"The Regent came, the mayor of the town, the vizier, the fanbearer on the right hand of the King, the leader of the bowmen, the chief of the archers, the governor of the fortress of Tjarw, the great of Medjay, the royal scribe, the administrative officer of the chariotry the lord master of the ceremonies of the Feast of the He-goat, the master of Smendes, the first prophet of Seth, the lector-priest of Wadjet-Opet-Tawy, the head of all priests of all the gods, Seti, right of voice"

There is also the so called 'war cabinet' in the tomb of wet nurse Maia. Supposedly Seti is shown there along with Pa Ramessu - not really sure how accurate the identifications are there though. If it is indeed Seti there with his father it shows he has attained a pretty respectable position in the time of Tutankhamun.

The time of Horemheb could (might also be a smidgen early a bit hard to say) be the era that the family of Minhotep and Maya gained their status. With grandson Amenominet (future Chief of Medjay etc) seemingly a friend of Ramesses II, his parents (Wennofer High Priest of Amun and Isis Superior of the Harem of Amun) were probably contempory (age-wise) with Seti. I expect Isis held her title after Takhat (mother of Neferhotep TT50) so I think this is some sort of help in placing Isis during the reign of Horemheb.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How old do you think he was when he joined the army?Maybe he doesn't mention his background because his family died when he was young.

Horemheb interests me because he is a warrior pharaoh. He's not a wimp. Sometimes you got to defend yourself.
And always a valkryie like myself can smile at him.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How old do you think he was when he joined the army?Maybe he doesn't mention his background because his family died when he was young.


I don't think there's any way to know that for certain. Too much of Horemheb's origins is lost in myserty. I doubt he was ever a poor wretch wandering the streets and begging for food; rather, he likely entered the army as an officer as the progeny of comfortable parents in good standing.

I personally am interested in Horemheb, too. After a lifetime in military service he couldn't help but be a warrior king. We see in the splendid reliefs of his Saqqara tomb in which only his wives were buried that probably as far back as Ay he was sending expeditions to the lands of Nubia, Libya, the Levant, and Hatti to restore the Empire of his nation. One gets the sense that after the lengthy "Amarna interlude," this man of action was chomping at the bit to dust off his khepesh sword and get jiggy with it. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
After a lifetime in military service he couldn't help but be a warrior king. We see in the splendid reliefs of his Saqqara tomb in which only his wives were buried that probably as far back as Ay he was sending expeditions to the lands of Nubia, Libya, the Levant, and Hatti to restore the Empire of his nation.


Even though I am not particularly a supporter of Horemheb, I too have to agree that anyone with that kind of military record deserves respect in that area.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, you just don't like Horemheb because of how hard he was on Akhenaten. I have no doubt that Horemheb disliked Akhenaten fervently, and I wouldn't be surprised if the latter felt the same about the former. And as tyrannical as I personally believe Akhenaten to have been in forwarding his own agenda, life under the reign of Horemheb may not have been terribly easy, either.

Historians refer to the reigns of Horemheb and his successor, Ramesses I, as a time of military rule (given the shared martial roots these men had), and that's basically a kind way of expressing "dictatorship." Still, given the disjointed condition in which Egypt had found itself by that point, it was probably necessary. I look at Horemheb the pharaoh as coming to the throne at the right time.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ah, you just don't like Horemheb because of how hard he was on Akhenaten.


Maybe, but regardless considering Horemheb's background I am sure Akhenaten was not the only he was hard on.
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