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Horemheb
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maahes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Accepted or not a male leader could not just claim marriage pacts with old families. Horemheb was either foreign born peer beloved or Egyptian born peer beloved. One does not claim marriage pacts with heiresses or heriditary princesses regardless of self-appointed position without damaging the delicate fabric of tribal affairs.
In order to have married an heiress named Mutnodjemet he must have been placed within the inner vortex power normally assigned to inner temple priests and the children of the harem. Horemheb belonged to Amenhotep III and he may have been the son of a vassal military leader or more probably the child of enemy combatants of Nuba.

If he was from the north he would have the signia of his sepat on his seal.
He has none. He hasn't got a single symbol, without tribe you are nothing.

His brief period of power reminds me of what a Japanese warrior caste leader was obliged to perform to become leader of the country.

Ancient Egypt was a place of castes and classes.
It is unfortunate that you see no valdity in the heiress factor.
Without tribal origins there is no Egypt.
So what would you leave us with? Big hubris despots with domineering powers that somehow magically force all the many tribal regions and clans into subjugation under a man without so much a single symbol of his bloodline!

Horemheb was ill informed and his actions and inactions left us with Seti and his ways. Egypt never recovered.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're still missing the point. Horemheb cannot be traced back to Amenhotep III's reign. There is no evidence whatsoever of him during that time period.

And just emphatically stating that he was a peer beloved (Smr watj n mrwt) during the time of Amenhotep III is pure fiction.

You hang absolutely everything on this tribal theory and even though there is evidence of some tribal arrangements at the nome level, there is no evidence of it playing that big of a factor in the overall picture of government.


None of the pharaohs make much of their tribal ancestry, so I'm sorry but I don't see much evidence for your theories. None of them refer to their sepats and horemheb is no different.



Quote:
So what would you leave us with? Big hubris despots with domineering powers that somehow magically force all the many tribal regions and clans into subjugation under a man without so much a single symbol of his bloodline!

Don't get obnoxious about it.
As a moderator I don't really like your tone and attitude.
Using a disparaging tone is not going to convince anyone.
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maahes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously there is a chasm between typed words and their inferred meanings. Women rulers did make a great deal of their origins.
If you or anyone else fails to fully comprehend the significance of tribal organization it is the fault of Egyptology not Egypt.
Im thrilled you know precisely what a peer beloved companion is.
Looking back at Horemheb there is a great deal we can infer from his own testaments.
Let us go in that direction. I don't care for presuppositions either.
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maahes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Don't get obnoxious about it.
As a moderator I don't really like your tone and attitude.
Using a disparaging tone is not going to convince anyone.
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AND it should be noted that your tone and attitude in this instance are less than respectful or empathetic much less objective.


Perhaps the seasons changes are working against the grain.

My issue with your "not buying any of this heiress stuff" is the rejection of my personal identity of my own culture. However, that is my personal issue. It should not be a barking point. I do have my own theories.
They are not all quantifiable. But then, with the sort of brains and experience, objective analysis and synethesis of your diligence we can only evolve in our collective comprehension of history.
Unless we begin to behave in an uncivil and disrespectful matter.
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Brunhilde
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horemheb just married the woman to make it look efficiant to daring eyes.

Autocrats need to 3 things in order to stay in power: Army backing them up, the inner circle of nobility to support them,and the will of the people. If one of those gets shaken, a coup d'etat usually takes place. If two or all of them happen...Down with the monarchy.

Horemhab had the army, who he had been commanding for at least 13 years. The people probably were glad to have things turned back to the way they were. He just married Mutnobjenet to appease the nobility.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Horemhab had the army, who he had been commanding for at least 13 years.


And that is the very crux of it. At the state level, the very peak of recognition and identity, one's family ties could indeed be a prominent factor. This is likely one of the ways by which Hatshepsut was able to insert herself as the more powerful regent for some twenty years. She more than likely descended from the Taosides, the line that founded what we call Dynasty 18 and the New Kingdom, and that lent significant weight to her power. The fact that she was from this lineage was what mattered, perhaps no less than the fact that she was "more royal" by blood than her young co-regent.

But family lineage and the clans from which they came were certainly not always a key factor. It would be tremendously oversimplifying matters to argue such. In times when the throne may well have been contested--and Horemheb's time is a perfect example--one's connections within the government coupled with the death of a royal family line, were more tangible and practical as deciding factors. As Brunhilde aptly pointed out, Horemheb had the weight of the most powerful military of the Near East behind him, and that was a real and tangible power that, in his specific time, was much more significant than any lineage from which he did or did not come. Few if any were left who could have challenged Horemheb for the throne. As far as that goes, it's always been something of a surprise to me that Horemheb didn't seize the throne immediately after Tut, instead of the very old and unremarkable Ay.

The heiress theory is no longer accepted by most of the leading scholars and Egyptologists of the day. Horemheb landed on the throne, and his marriage to Mutnodjemet was more than likely a means to that end. She was a convenience for him, and she probably willingly agreed to the marriage with this powerful man for the ability he would grant to lift her status; otherwise, chances are we would porbably never have even heard of Mutnodjemet, whether or not her roots were royal. Royal blood did not necessarily make someone significant in the end.

All known evidence points to a northern, Lower Egyptian, origin for our Horemheb. There is nothing I've ever studied of Horemheb that would have him arriving from Nubia. I know of no evidence that he was a smr-w't n mrwt, a peer beloved, and likely he was not. It doesn't matter. Horemheb most likely took the throne due to who he was in the scattered aftermath of the Amarna Period, not due to from where he came.
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Brunhilde
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's like comparing Hindenburg to WilheimII.
Horemheb & Ankhenaton were just too different to coexist peacefully in life or history. He just gave lip service.

Aye only ruled four years, he was an old man when he took the throne so Horemheb probably hoped he would keel over fast.

Tut was just the kid in the way of his plan to rewrite history to appease himself. Autocrats can't be Grover Cleveland.
Besides, Horemheb needed the youthful images to make the lies look good.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maahes wrote:
Accepted or not a male leader could not just claim marriage pacts with old families. Horemheb was either foreign born peer beloved or Egyptian born peer beloved. One does not claim marriage pacts with heiresses or heriditary princesses regardless of self-appointed position


Since Horemheb claimed to descend collaterally from Thuthmosis III, he may have had some legitimate claim to the throne. Being 'collateral' he would maybe need to boost his claim thru marriage, but that seems more than mere 'self-appointed'.

Consequently, if accurate, the same should be true of Ay or he wouldnt have preceeded Horemhab to the thrine.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:
Since Horemheb claimed to descend collaterally from Thuthmosis III, he may have had some legitimate claim to the throne. Being 'collateral' he would maybe need to boost his claim thru marriage, but that seems more than mere 'self-appointed'.

Consequently, if accurate, the same should be true of Ay or he wouldn't have preceeded Horemhab to the throne.


I recently read in Dodson's genealogy book a claim that Horemheb came from Heracleopolis. I don't know what that is based on, but it is interesting.
Heracleopolis was also called Ninsu and was located in the Fayoum, some 50 miles south of Memphis. This was also the location of the harem palace of Mi-wer.
If this is all true, then this may mean that Horemheb was a child of the royal palace (some collateral branch as you mentioned).
Even if he was not really a direct descendant, then by being raised in the palace he could claim a connection. (LOL the latter was my more cynical interpretation).

For as far as Aye goes, many think Aye was related to Yuya, and some think maybe also to Aperel (due to very similar titles). So Aye may have been raised with the royals as well. Aperel was a child of the kap, and if Aye was related to Yuya or Aperel, we would expect him to have spent his childhood at court and getting schooled alongside the royal children.
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Brunhilde
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh. All this genealogy talk doesn't mean much. That's where autocracy is at fault...get a crazy/soft/invalid ruler and theres nothing you can really do about it. Unless you want to be a murderer.

What really counts is the actions you do in your life.
Of course he probably came from upper-class, wealthy enough to go to Military Academy.Then join as officer.
What might he have done there in order to risen so high?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually you're wrong about that. The family ties were very important in ancient egypt. Just being a self made man didn't happen very much.
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Brunhilde
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The genelogy matters stuff is almost what drove me to become a communist.

But hey, enough about my internal struggle for happiness & love.

Horemheb had to do something though, there is something that distinguises the Nelsons' from Colonal Saxon-whatevername
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brunhilde wrote:
The genelogy matters stuff is almost what drove me to become a communist.


LOL.

It is not hard to imagine that in a culture where Kings descend from gods that nobility descends in their bloodlines as well. I mea,n Britain still has some measure of hereditary titles (which leads to SIR Christopher Guest [of National Lampoon fame] and his lovely wife LADY Jamie Lee Curtis).
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just LOVE Elizabeth Taylor's comment when being given the title of a Dame this week-end. She said that she's been a broad for all of her adult life, and now she's a dame!
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Brunhilde
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I just finished a strange phase. I was a Trostyite for one week. But them the people at revleft were really mean to mean, and something clicked. I don't want to be communist, I want to be myself.

Before that it was all about royalty. Tsars & Anastasia.
Now I am in love with a Russian boy who doesn't want me to read stuff about Russian history. "You are a nice girl. That stuff is too sad."He is so mine!!!

Now I'm into Presidents. Except certain Republicans make me sick.
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