Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Baboons adoring the sun.
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Baboons adoring the sun. Reply with quote

No, I'm not slandering the ancients Very Happy

I was just browsing through the Louvre site and came across this site mentioning the Baboons adoring the sun
Baboons

It is specifically mentioned that:

Quote:
The Egyptian texts, and more particularly the hymns to the sun, make the meaning of the scene clear: the baboons are raising their hands, singing, and dancing in homage to the rising sun, which they guide and assist in its passage through the gates of day.


and

Quote:
The baboons' adoration of the sun had come to be given special
prominence by the time of Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) at the latest.


I'm just curious where the connection between baboons and sun-worship may come from?

I have seen Akhenaten prostrate, adoring the sun with baboons nearby. Made me wonder if these animals may have lived in the temples? Or would those have depicted statues?
I always thought baboons could be fairly nasty.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, baboons are linked to Thoth, but he's a moon god...

I have read somewhere, can't remember where though, that some species of baboon do weird things at dawn...either hooting and howling and waving their arms about, or just watching the sunrise with an almost 'religious' appearance...not sure which though. And I'm not sure if I'm correct about this either.
_________________
High-Priestess of Isis, Hereditary Princess, Lady of Philae, Favourite of Osiris, the Lord of Abydos, Daughter of Horus, Chantress of Bastet, Superior of the Kitty Litter Wink
<---Check out my av-I made it myself Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rozette
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1185
Location: Belguim

PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this info in one of my books.

The Wady Qurud at Thebes was a baboon cemetery. The animals must have come from temple sites (Kessler 2001). Some animals were prepared for burial with care, and a baboon-shaped pot suggests ritual purpose.
Texts at Saqqara indicate that sacred baboons had names and lived in a small colony in a minor temple....the dates of their deaths were devotedly recorded.
The Wady Qurud baboons are Ptolemaic-Roman in date, as opposed to those near the tomb of Amenhotep III, which date to Dynasty 18 and concerned the New Year's festival of renewal (Kessler 1989).
At Tuna el-Gebel the latest evidence of baboon burials as well potery associated with the Temple site of Osiris-Baboon and with priests houses is late 1st century AD(Kessler 2002).
94.0624
KESSLER, Dieter and Abd el-Halim NUREDDIN, Der Tierfriedhof von Tuna el-Gebel, Antike Welt, Mainz am Rhein 25 (1994), 252-265. (ill. incl. colour, plans).

The Ibiotapheion or ibis-cemetery of Tuna el-Gebel is being investigated by the Egyptological Institute of the University of Munich. The great temple of Thoth (Hermaion), where Thoth was venerated as supraregional supreme deity, was connected by a processional road to a temple dedicated to Osiris-Ibis and Osiris-Baboon. The remains of this temple and the archive building next to it are being excavated anew. In the temple's main axis was the entrance to the Ibiotapheion. With a total length of 3.5 km, its subterranean galleries form the most extensive system of this sort in Egypt; only a fraction can be excavated. The main galleries, C, D, B, and A are briefly described. W.H.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/baboons.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info Very Happy

I had wondered what made them associate baboons with the gods. I liked Isisinacrisis' suggestion.


The article from touregypt immediately mentions that their role is rather mysterious.

I'm not sure I knew about the identification with Thoth. I thought it was interesting that the baboon shows up in so many guises: Hapi (son of Horus), assoc. with Thoth, assoc with Amun-Re, the baboon god Baba, mythical gurdians of the Lake of Fire in the underworld, etc.

That's quite a bit. Very Happy

LOL Do have to admit that the title "Priest of the Living Baboon" made me smirk just a bit....
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VBadJuJu
Priest
Priest


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isnt there some other religious significance to baboons? Arent they related to the night hours? I recall something about a number of baboons (12?) in a religious context (like some tombs or temples) and associated with the night hours or something.
_________________
Build a man a fire and he is warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VBadJuJu
Priest
Priest


Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
I have read somewhere, can't remember where though, that some species of baboon do weird things at dawn...either hooting and howling and waving their arms about...

Hmmmm... sounds like my neighbors. That may explain a lot. Wink
_________________
Build a man a fire and he is warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are baboons associated with the first hour of the Amduat.
Very Happy I did a search on google after you mentioned the night hours.

There are some depictions of these baboons in the tomb of Aye:
http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/pharaons/ay/e_ay.htm

They are on the North wall. (2/3 of the way down the page).
Looks like there may be 12 of them? Six on either side.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The amduat baboons are depicted in the tomb of Tutakhamun also:
http://www.thebanmappingproject.com/sites/browse_tombimages_876.html
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can echo what isisinacrisis said about baboons (and VBadJuJu about his neighbors Laughing ). What I've read is that baboons are particularly active and noisy at dawn and at dusk. Ever the vigilant observers of nature, predynastic Egyptians may have interpreted this as the animals' unusual quasi-divine ties to the sun much as how they observed how jackals were drawn to cemeteries (and thus gave rise to numerous canid deities like Anubis and Wepwawet). Baboons became a kind of adorer and assistant to Re.

You will often see this fixation with baboons illustrated in the Book of the Dead--you quoted hymns to the sun in your original post, and these are common fuxtures in more elaborate Books of the Dead (such as Ani's). They are more precisely hymns to Re in the form of adoration and praise. Here's an example of one from a beautiful Book of the Dead we have at the Field that dates to the New Kingdom (the manuscript, not the museum). My apologies for the oblique angle; it's tough to photograph this scroll without glare because it's encased in clear plastic. Mad In any case, you see Re-Horakhty in his solar barque held aloft by a personified djed pillar, and a pair of baboons stand in adoration on either side of the sun god. Each baboon has a little hieroglyphic inscription by its head that says "Adoring Re" or "Worshiping Re." Note the diminutive squatting figure of Maat right in front of Re-Horakhty. Ain't she the cutest little thing?
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Philip Arrhidaeus
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Belgium

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The picture of the statue of the baboon on
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/baboons.htm
and on
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/hermopolis.htm
does not render how big it actually is and hence how important the temple of Thot was.
For comparison:
http://users.pandora.be/gossaert-verschuere/elasjmoenein.html

And I also think it's correct to presume that there is certainly a connection between the behaviour of baboons at dawn and dusk and their 'divinity', certainly in religion inspired by nature.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The upper frieze at the temple of Rameses II at Abu Simbel is a group of baboons, supposedly worshipping the rising sun--yes, isis and kmt are correct. For some reason, baboons do get more agitated at sunrise. The ancient Egyptians associated this increase in vocal expression a bit differently--the noise the baboons made was prayers and thanks for the arrival of the sun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For comparison:


Wow, that is one big baboon! And not just big but exquisitely well carved. Look at the details.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Khepesh
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The baboons in question are a nocturnal species that exhibit, as previously mentioned, increased barking and activity in the morning hours before they sleep. This is similar to the way wolves seem to howl at the full moon, and I'm sure their are several other incidents within nature of animals acting afool during certain periods of day or night.
The linking to Djehuty (Thoth) comes from his association with the moon if I remember correctly. The baboons give praise to the sun before finally succumbing to sleep and are therefore closely related to the lunar Gods, and Djehuty, being the one who won a fraction of the moon's light in order to make five extra days to complete the calender and of course allow Wesir (Osiris), Aset (Isis), Sutekh (Set), and Nebt-het (Nephthys) to be born in turn associated Him with lunar supremacy (for lack of a better term Wink)
Further still, the idea that Gods and Goddesses could take the form of animals, and that these particular animals seemed to show signs of reverence probably just catapulted the Egyptians' belief that the sun was indeed host to a king amongst Gods. Just an idea, but quite plausible.
_________________
"Happiness is but an orgasm; short burst of pleasure and then it's gone, leaving you exhausted and wanting more."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1229
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

baboons are not native to egypt, they seem to have been imported from nubia. however, the egyptians were familiar with them in the 4th millenium. the name 'baboon' is thought to have originated from ancient egypt, and the meaning is thought to have some reference to their sexual prowess. they were familiar with two types of baboon, from arabia-hamadryas, and ethiopia-baboon. they may have been around in upper egypt in the old kingdom, but were certainly extinct as a native species by the middle kingdom, hen they appear in tomb paintings. the egyptians exported some baboon and monkey species to assyria, and other near eastern states.

that's right, there's a story of hathor/sekhmet running away from home, to nubia, and re sending thoth to bring her back. she was a lion, and he came as a baboon and told her a story, she calmed down and became hathor.they then returned to egypt. makes sense since she was re's daughter.

the baboons are a form of thoth, and he was god of writing and the moon.
they directed tasks to scribes for him, and were judges in the underworld.. they are also associated with their darker side of nature, with apophis and seth. the baboon god bab was given the features of seth. various monkey's are also associated with the creator god atum.

they also guarded the underworld, and the lake of fire there. and some of their mummies are thought to have represented the predynastic chieftains. king narmer is depicted transforming into a baboon, associated with 'the great white one', thought to be a massive hamadryas baboon.


http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/baboons.htm
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/baboon.htm
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Khepesh
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it's believed by some that in the early days of the Old Kingdom, and if not then, than in the Proto or Predynastic era that the regions of Upper Egypt (which in truth is Southern Egypt as I'm sure most of you know) where much more wet in climate and as such a whole hell of a lot greener (well I might be exagerating a tad with the "whole hell of a lot" part), and that the baboons and monkeys so often found in Nubia or other parts of Africa may have very well inhabited the area. Now as we know, it wasn't long before the climate changed to the much more hostile desert-like conditions we see today, and as it changed they assume the monkeys and baboons began migrating further south until no species remained native to Egypt. Wink Just thought it was something worth knowing
_________________
"Happiness is but an orgasm; short burst of pleasure and then it's gone, leaving you exhausted and wanting more."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Mythology and Religion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group