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sesostris
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kennethhirst
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: sesostris Reply with quote

can you please stop using the pharoes name sesostris as this frankly irritates me no end,i find no hyroglyphs that spell the name sesostris only SENWOSRET... Laughing Very Happy
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paulst
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not that bad,Sesostris is only the Greek name for Senwosret. Having said that, I try to avoid greek names when I can. Smile paul
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, it gets on my nerves, too. I especially hate it when scholars and Egyptologists do it in the materials they write. When I see "Cheops" written, I wince and am compelled to write "Khufu" in the margins. How *** is that? Shocked

Of course, writing Sesostris as Senwosret is not even in 100% agreement. I prefer "Senusret," but it sure beats the Greek corruption.

But no need to go too overboard. Whenever we type Osiris or Isis or Anubis or Hierakonpolis or Heliopolis or any one of dozens of similar words, we are not using the ancient Egyptian names but the Greek.
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paulst
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you about Cheops Mad I hate that name Smile paul
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So where can you find a list of the actual Egyptian names for people, places, and Gods? If I remember right Egypt was actually known as T (pretty lame name if you ask me Laughing ) and the surrounding area of Thebes was known as Waset (which is a cooler name then Thebes). But that's about as much of true Egyptian names that I know. Embarassed
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
I agree, it gets on my nerves, too. I especially hate it when scholars and Egyptologists do it in the materials they write. When I see "Cheops" written, I wince

OTOH, being too much a purist makes the material hard to read. Some of Redford stuff where he refuses to pad some names with 'e' (ie Gm · (t)-p3-itn in text instead of Gempaaten) makes it unnecessarily hard to wade thru.

BTW Cheops Cheops Cheops Cheops Cheops.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

imanobody wrote:
So where can you find a list of the actual Egyptian names for people, places, and Gods? If I remember right Egypt was actually known as T (pretty lame name if you ask me Laughing ) and the surrounding area of Thebes was known as Waset (which is a cooler name then Thebes).

I think the most common name for Egypt was kmt. I think it means dark or black which refers to the land after innundation. They also had a different name for the lands to the west something like dst or dsrt which IIRC, means red or dead and bears a resemblence to 'desert' (and why they buried the dead on the west bank).

This site has the kings by dynasty, all 5 names and cartouches when known, mummy pics, all known date guesses and some geneology.

This other site is sort of a lite version, but easier for quick name, cartouche or succession look ups.
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think the most common name for Egypt was kmt

Sorry, my bad Embarassed That's what I get for using my memory Laughing
But I could of sworn that I read somewhere that they called it T, but probably just my mind playing tricks on me or I'm just too excited about the new A-Team movie.

So how would you pronounce that: k-m-t or kemt?
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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OTOH, being too much a purist makes the material hard to read.


VBadJuJu brings up an important point. Though many of the books you might buy at Borders or through Amazon are written by the top scholars in the field of Egyptology, they are usually written for the layperson. They want to make ancient Egypt accessible to everyone, and so they use the terminology that's familiar to most people. Some of us might readily see "Gempaaten" in the transliterated Gm · (t)-p3-itn, but most will not. I like to see the transliterations when I read this stuff, but it confuses just about everyone who has not studied the ancient language. It's more important to make the material easily understood, and the fact is, most people are familiar with the Greek corruptions and adaptations. There's nothing wrong with that.

The word kmt means "the black land" and, as VBadJuJu said, it is in reference to the yearly innundation. The flood waters brought in very rich, fertile, dark topsoils from farther south in Africa, and when the waters receded, these dark soils were laid down. These soils were the basis of Egyptian farming, and thus the very basis of much of the Egyptian economy.

Probably an even more common name for ancient Egypt was t3wy (Tawy), which means "the two lands," a reference to the separate Delta region and river valley that formed dynastic Egypt. That's why you so often see the term "Neb Tawy" applied to kings; it means "lord of the two lands."

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the lands to the west something like dst or dsrt which IIRC, means red or dead and bears a resemblence to 'desert' (and why they buried the dead on the west bank).


The word dshrt (Deshret) is the ancient Egyptian for "the red land," in reference to the desert, east or west. The interesting thing is, from dshrt came our modern word "desert."

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BTW Cheops Cheops Cheops Cheops Cheops.


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Nekht-Ankh
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
The word dshrt (Deshret) is the ancient Egyptian for "the red land," in reference to the desert, east or west. The interesting thing is, from dshrt came our modern word "desert."


Although this is often said, it is folk etymology. According to the OED desert is from the Latin desertum = abandoned, which has no connection with dshrt.
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kennethhirst
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: desert Reply with quote

sorry nekt-ankh i have to go along with kmt-sesh on this one as egyptian was the first language and latin came after and was more likley taken from the egyptian word Twisted Evil
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not hard to believe the Latin word would derive from the Egyptian word (deserts being more common in Egypt than Rome) from the time when they ruled Egypt. It would just depend on how far back one would care to dig.

I definately prefer Khufu to Cheops, and Amenhotep to Amenophis. But I draw the line at Thutmose vs Djehutymose and Thebes, Memphis and Heliopolis vs Wast, On and the rest.
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu, I see were you're coming from and I see your point. BUT... let's say that in 500 years from now America is a no longer a super power and gets taken over by some foreign country, a country with a totally different language and customes. The new rulers go about changing all the names of the country right down to the former presidents to names or meanings in their language. These new rulers didn't make the country powerful and will eventually be taken over by another country in a couple of hundred years, but the names that they made up seem to stick. Fast-forward 3000 years and whenever historians are talking about America, it's states, it's towns, and it's rulers, they keep using the made up names that the foreigners gave them. Won't that get your goat? All the great accomplishments of America and it's people would be, basically, given to those foreigners that ruled the country way after it's hayday.

On the other side of the coin, it would be very hard to use all the correct names and still have people understand what you're talking about; only a Egyptologist (or would you call them a kmtologist) could follow you. But it will never change until people start using the correct terms; people are now calling Cheops Knufu, so it can happen.

By the way... I like the term Waset better then Thebes Razz But I still use the classic Greek names whenever I talk about Egypt, so I guess I'm sounding a bit hypocritical. Laughing
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Nekht-Ankh
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kennethhirst wrote:
egyptian was the first language and latin came after and was more likley taken from the egyptian word


Many English words are derived from Latin, albeit indirectly, almost none from Ancient Egyptian with which English speakers had no contact. It's far more likely that it would be from Latin. Which language came first doesn't come into it, unless you are also asserting that the Latin is derived from the Ancient Egyptian.

VBadJuJu wrote:
It is not hard to believe the Latin word would derive from the Egyptian word


The Latin word is the past participle of a verb meaning 'to leave'. It is entirely different in sense from deshret = 'red land'. It is stretching credulity to derive the Latin from the Egyptian.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Although this is often said, it is folk etymology. According to the OED desert is from the Latin desertum = abandoned, which has no connection with dshrt.


LOL "Folk etymology"? I hadn't heard that term before. In any case, you were right and I stand corrected. Every worthwhile source I consulted, both in print and on the web, substantiates what you shared with us. I can't even remember when I first heard that "desert" comes from the Egyptian dshrt, but I've heard it many times since and never thought to doubt it. Consider it a lesson learned.

But while I was doing some searching to try to figure out where I went wrong, I did learn something else new that was interesting. The Egyptians used a substance formed from galena to produce what we call "kohl," that black mascara they applied around their eyes. We all know that much, but the Arabic for "kohl" is al-kuhul, and from this old Arabic word comes the word "alcohol." By the 1700s alcohol came to mean any substance obtained by sublimation, and hence "quintessence." "Alcohol of wine" was thus the "quintessence of wine," produced by distillaton or rectification, and by the middle of the 18th century alcohol was being used on its own for the intoxicating ingredient in strong liquor.

Wow, the things I learn. Very Happy
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