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Smenkare / Neferneferuaten - the christmas edition
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:42 pm    Post subject: Smenkare / Neferneferuaten - the christmas edition Reply with quote

LOL Thought I would start a new thread...

Quote:
Taken together, I am given to believe that differences were substantial between N-N and A-N.


The neferneferuaten part of the inscription looks identical to me in the inscriptions I have seen. There is of course a difference that in some cartouches Nefernefruaten is followed by Nefertiti and in others by mer-waenre.

I'm actually curious about the names Smenkare and Neferneferuaten. I just looked up the meaning, and Smenkare means "Vigorous Is The Soul Of Re" and Neferneferuaten means something like "Beautiful Is Beauty of Aten". Not exactly close.

I was wondering if Neferneferuaten may have been one of those names that may be borne by both males and females? It's close to the more orthodox female name Neferure and it seems not unlikely that it's just the Atenist version of that. Men with a nefer name incorporating Re are usually written as Ranefer.

Personally I just don't buy Neferneferuaten as a title or epithet. The names of two of the daughters are Neferneferuaten - Tasherit and Neferneferure. So it seems very much like a personal name to me.

The thought ocurred to me that Smenkhare was maybe named Neferneferuaten as well as a prince? Could just be the Atenist version of Prince Ranefer? Just a thought Very Happy

I find the double name change a bit hard to swallow though. The occasions where a king changed (one of his) names in a significant way is rather rare. There's Peribsen (Sekhemib / Seth Peribsen) in the old kingdom, Pepi I (Nefersahor / Meryre) in the middle kingdom, and Akhenaten (Amenhotep / Akhenaten) in the new kingdom. So now this happens twice in ca 15 years?
Anything is possible I guess, but I personally find it more likely there are two people instead of one.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DAMN! The Monthly Ankhkheprure Discussion and Oration Group (MADOG) is meeting and I'm not ready!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Taken together, I am given to believe that differences were
substantial between N-N and A-N.
The neferneferuaten part of the inscription looks identical to me in the inscriptions I have seen. There is of course a difference that in some cartouches Nefernefruaten is followed by Nefertiti and in others by mer-waenre.

Wow! It MUST be Christmas - a whole new thread!!! Wink

"Given to believe" means I have read it in multiple places. There are said to be "slight but consistent difference in writing" the Neferneferuaten of Ankhkheprure and that of Nefertiti (which way the reeds face??). Interestingly those persist into the filiation of her grandchildren which means chronologically you have the different forms being used at more or less the same time.

Ankhkheprure Neferneferuaten inscriptions are so sparce and even more rarely published that a great deal of faith has to be placed in the assessment of the egyptologist describing them. A bit more than I am sometimes comfortable with given the politicized nature of the implications.

Quote:
I was wondering if Neferneferuaten may have been one of those names that may be borne by both males and females? It's close to the more orthodox female name Neferure and it seems not unlikely that it's just the Atenist version of that.

I've seen something like that posited from a number of sources. Apecifically that Neferneferuaten may have been or become some sort of ceremonial Atenist position. It is without question that Nefertiti played a huge ceremonial role in the cult - the temple at Karnak has her depicted 9 time more often than hubby. If true, when she departed the scene, it is not outrageous to think the new coregent would now fill that role and take her name as a result. Hence the name change from Smenkhare to Neferneferuaten.

Quote:
Personally I just don't buy Neferneferuaten as a title or epithet. The names of two of the daughters are Neferneferuaten - Tasherit and Neferneferure.
I don't subscribe in toto to the argument of it as an epithet. It is basically just a phrase Nefertiti added to her cartouche; it is not a second name in its own cartouche as we might expect in the Nefertiti full blown coregent scenario. So in that regard it does seem a lot like an epithet. However, the -tasherit daughter indicates that THEY were treating it as a name.

I dont think that rules out the speculation of Neferneferuaten as a title (for lack of a better word) for the person second-in-charge of the Aten cult. I think this is made abundantly clear if you look at the nomens of the putative Atenist kings: AkhenATEN, Smenkhare, NeferneferuATEN and TutankhATEN. Which name stands out? (LOL - which one of these is not like the others?). On balance it seems downright likely a co-regent to Akhenaten would change his name to include the Aten; perhaps it was even required.

The notion of Neferneferuaten as a position or title wholly owned by Aten, Inc is not contraindicated by the evidence. Akhenaten changed his name in Year 5, the same time that Akhetaten was started and the same time Neferneferuaten was added to Nefertiti's name. The Karnak temple and her other depictions clearly establish her major role in Atenism. So, instead of her name change being merely coincidental with Akhenaten's, a plausible case can be made that her name change was a planned and conscious part of the many new Aten-related changes which would follow and her name was reflective of her role in it.

Equally possible is that the position simply evolved as a result of the significant role Nefertiti had played. After she departed, her name add-on was made into a position and/or transferred to Smenkhare to reflect that now he would be playing that role. Its an odd handling of names in other times, but I think not for the Armana period. In fact, it would seem even more strange for the second Atenist king and Akhenaten's coregent would be allowed to co-rule withOUT a name which brings glory to the Aten. The name Smenkhare does not.

Quote:
I find the double name change a bit hard to swallow though. The occasions where a king changed (one of his) names in a significant way is rather rare.

What name changes are you gagging on; that Akhenaten and Smenkhare both changed names? Akhenaten and Nefertiti altering their names is 2 at once as well. What about Tutankhaten and Ankhesenpaaten? Were Paatenemheb and Nakhtpaaten born with those names in anticipation of the Aten movement (honest question, not being snippy)? What about Hormheb putatively Paatenemheb?

In almost any other period, I'd agree with you. However in the Armana Interlude (which makes it sound like a peaceful intermission accompanied by background lutes and harps) change seems to be a constant factor. Changes in religion, changes in art, change the capital city. Change the king's name, change the chief god. Change the Aten's name - twice! Change the depiction of the god. Change regnal year dating to give the Aten a regnal year. Change extant monument inscriptions of Dad's name. Change Dad's nomen to his prenomen at times. Change the role of the priests. Change the role of the king. Change the Queen's name. Change and enhance the queen's role.

But the royal successor changing his name is too much?? It seems the least alarming change in the list. I dont have a bit of trouble accepting, even expecting, the second Atenist king-to-be to take on an Atenist name. Only the dead Neferneferuaten-teshirit could have become Akhkheprure without a name change.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: nefer-nefer(u)aten Reply with quote

in my interpretation of the name ,nefer would be beautifull and nefer(u) being the plural-beautifulist as in handsom-handsomist or am i just talking *** Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:
Wow! It MUST be Christmas - a whole new thread!!! Wink

LOL And I do hopeyou have a wonderful christmas Very Happy

VBadJuJu wrote:
Ankhkheprure Neferneferuaten inscriptions are so sparce and even more rarely published that a great deal of faith has to be placed in the assessment of the egyptologist describing them. A bit more than I am sometimes comfortable with given the politicized nature of the implications.

I agree. But the Ankh-keperure Smenkhare inscriprions are just as rare if not even more so.
It's rather hard to find photographs or even drawings of the inscriptions.

VBadJuJu wrote:
... that Neferneferuaten may have been or become some sort of ceremonial Atenist position. It is without question that Nefertiti played a huge ceremonial role in the cult - the temple at Karnak has her depicted 9 time more often than hubby. If true, when she departed the scene, it is not outrageous to think the new coregent would now fill that role and take her name as a result. Hence the name change from Smenkhare to Neferneferuaten.

The problem with that (for me) is that I have never seen any evidence that Smenkhare was ever referred to as Nefernefruaten. This is always claimed by people, but to my knowledge there is no inscription, scarab or anything else that has the names of Smenkhare and Neferneferuaten associated with one another.

Because this association has such huge implications for as far as interpretations of the (scant) evidence goes, I have a real problem with that.

This notion that Smenkhare was ever called Neferneferuaten is based on the use of the throne name Ankhkheperure in association with both names.
There are other examples where different individuals had the same throne name though. There are two Merenres in the 6th dynasty, there are several Neferkares in the 7th/8th dynasty.

Personally, I don't assume that Smenkhare was ever called Neferneferuaten. It would be really interesting if it could be shown (with some semblance of certainty) that these names were both used to refer to King Smenkhare.
I think that's part of the difference in our view of the issue. Very Happy You seem to be assuming that Smenkhare was named Neferneferuaten and I don't.

VBadJuJu wrote:
On balance it seems downright likely a co-regent to Akhenaten would change his name to include the Aten; perhaps it was even required.

Considering that the last two princesses for instance were named in honor of Re instead of Aten and the seeming return to some semblance of orthodoxy I'm not sure about that. I get the impression Re would have been just as good.
But who knows? Very Happy

VBadJuJu wrote:
What name changes are you gagging on; that Akhenaten and Smenkhare both changed names? Akhenaten and Nefertiti altering their names is 2 at once as well. What about Tutankhaten and Ankhesenpaaten? .....

I think there's a big difference between changing an "aten" in a name to "amun". or "re" for that matter.
But if Neferneferuaten was changed to Smenkhare (or the other way around?), then we're talking about a more wholesale change. This type of change for a king is rather rare.
Anything is possible in this time period. That's true.

But like I said above, there is no place where Smenkhare (to my knowledge) referred to as Neferneferuaten as well (in the same breath so to say), and hence just assuming they are the same person seems like a bit big of an assumption.
I know there are quite a few people (including egyptologists) who make this assumption, but it seems to be something that is never really examined too carefully.

Some people seem to immediately go into defense mode because they assume that Neferneferuaten then "has to be" Nefertiti Laughing
But identifying who this Neferneferuaten if they were a different individual is an issue quite separate from establishing who ever used "Neferneferuaten" as part of their name.

____________________________

Some gratuitous speculation on my part Very Happy
(Not sure it fits really well either but some parts of the line of thought are intriguing I think)

I'm still not sure if Ankheperure Neferneferuaten could possibly NOT be a genuine pharaoh, but if it maybe was Nefertiti in a more official guise.
She had a very prominent position at court, and is often shown at the same size as Akhenaten. This could just be her in a role as some type of deputy for the king.

There are other examples of something like this I think. Tuthmosis I's son Amenmose had his name written in a cartouche while his father was alive.
When he died he was however not buried as a pharaoh.

If we assume this hypothesis for a moment, then this could explain why Nefertiti was not buried as a pharaoh either. She really had never ruled as a real pharaoh. Following this line of thought is interesting because it might show why some of her funerary goods could have ended up in Tut's tomb. If she had some materials prepared for the eventuality of her taking the throne, then she would not have been buried in those funerary goods.
When she died she would have technically still have been a great royal wife and would have been buried as such. (Explains the shabtis as well).

She is then followed by Smenkhkare in the sense that he steps up as the heir to the throne and he eventually does take the throne (even if only for a short time).
It may even be that when Smenkhare came of age he took up his rightful place and Nefertiti stepped back into a more traditional role. (May not have gone over well with the lady? Laughing )

In this line of speculation we would then have had Nefertiti in some official role for several years, but she dies before Akhenaten does, and the throne falls to Smenkhkare.

Same problem as with the other theories though: No proof!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:00 pm    Post subject: Re: nefer-nefer(u)aten Reply with quote

kennethhirst wrote:
in my interpretation of the name ,nefer would be beautifull and nefer(u) being the plural-beautifulist as in handsom-handsomist

That's what I have read. Neferu is sometime translated as "most beautiful" I think

kennethhirst wrote:
or am i just talking *** Very Happy

LOL I don't know? Does it smell like b.s.?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
And I do hope you have a wonderful christmas
And you too!

anneke wrote:
But the Ankh-keperure Smenkhare inscriprions are just as rare if not even more so. It's rather hard to find photographs or even drawings of the inscriptions.

Indeed, from whence the assumption that Smenkhare took the name of Neferneferuaten - one steeped in Atenist overtones - very shortly after being named coregent. It just doesnt strike me as a huge leap of faith that someone named Ankhkeperure Smenkhare changes their name to Ankhkeperure Neferneferuaten. It IS puzzling that he did not select an appropriately Atenist nomen from the start, but maybe that was to make a bigger to-do over the change, sort of like an Atenist baptism; public affirmation of faith or somesuch.

Just about the only alternative - that Neferneferuaten is someone else - is that Smekhare died almost immediately after being named coregent. Akhenaten names a daughter who, in an act utterly void of imagination, filches one name from mommy and recycles the other from her uncle/halfbrother-husband (whatever)...and semi usurps Tut along the way. I find that harder to buy than the convential thinking.


anneke wrote:
The problem with that (for me) is that I have never seen any evidence that Smenkhare was ever referred to as Nefernefruaten.
You said that before and I am not sure what you mean. Are you expecting to see a Smenkhare-Neferneferuaten inscription? Or maybe a depiction of him erasing Smenkhare and pencilling in "Neferneferuaten" Wink . Amenhotep IV and Akhenaten names dont appear together, so are they therefore different people?

anneke wrote:
You seem to be assuming that Smenkhare was named Neferneferuaten and I don't.

You seem to be assuming that Ankhkheprure and Ankhetkheprure were the same person, I don't (not as a certainty anyway).

anneke wrote:
Quote:
On balance it seems downright likely a co-regent to Akhenaten would change his name to include the Aten; perhaps it was even required.
Considering that the last two princesses for instance were named in honor of Re instead of Aten and the seeming return to some semblance of orthodoxy I'm not sure about that. I get the impression Re would have been just as good.
But Re always retained his importance: Neferkheprure Waenre. I think there is a significant difference between a 5th and 6th royal princess and the Second Atenist King, Coregent to the Son of the Aten and putatively, Second Main Dude of Atenism for the the Two Lands (Akhenaten HAD to hope his hand picked successor would continue his work).

I dont completely buy a return to orthodoxy on Akhenaten's part either. The Grand Excising happened quite late (about or after the time of the coregency), which shows undiminished fervor late into his reign.

Quote:
I think there's a big difference between changing an "aten" in a name to "amun". or "re" for that matter. But if Neferneferuaten was changed to Smenkhare (or the other way around?), then we're talking about a more wholesale change. This type of change for a king is rather rare.

I think the critical element is not the name change in a time when EVERYTHING was being changed but the need for an aten element for the second Atenist king.
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Quote:
Some gratuitous speculation on my part Very Happy
I'm still not sure if Ankheperure Neferneferuaten could possibly NOT be a genuine pharaoh, but if it maybe was Nefertiti in a more official guise.

In 1891 Petrie found a private stele at Armana. On one side was a human figure in fine relief. On the reverse was a more hasty incised scene showing Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten cartouches. This would seem to indicate a real coregent. (When I first read of this, I thought the inscription included _depictions_ of Akhenaten and Smenkhare with the Neferneferuaten name - which would REALLY be a cool Xmas present for you, LOL. Alas it is just their names.)

Evidence that Nefertiti is dead is abundant but not conclusive:
a) Shabti made during the embalming period indicates she's dead and merely GRW.
b) A niche started in the chamber generally believed to be hers indicates it was being prepared to recieve a sarcaphogus
c) Wooden fragments from said chamber were found bearing her likeness apparently from the corners of the sarcaphogus.
d) She disappears in Year 12 and Smenkhare shows up in Year 15. Two-Three years is an extraodinary period of time for her to go missing given her prominence to that point.
e) No non-royal tombs were used or worked on after Year 12, if also true for royal tombs, she would have been buried some 2-3 years before Neferneferuaten II comes along.

Quote:
If we assume this hypothesis for a moment, then this could explain why Nefertiti was not buried as a pharaoh either.
Shhhh! Dont say that out loud! You'll ruin Reeves whole dig!

The same could be said for Smenkhare in KV55. His royal wife, effective for her husband, really botched that! Wink

Quote:
It may even be that when Smenkhare came of age he took up his rightful place and Nefertiti stepped back into a more traditional role.
But the age of the KV55 mummy would indicate Smenkhare was already of age when he was named coregent. Attaining that age was likely the event that caused him to be named; the royal court, mindful of no male heirs from Nefertiti, dug up a brother/cousin etc and pressured Akhenaten to accept him.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any comments?

Within the coffin in KV55, a piece of gold (not foil) was found:

(beloved of Wa'enre, male form) This epithet is only associated with the Ankhkheprure-Neferneferuaten name (and maybe not even the feminine form - I havent had time to check since the meeting date sprang up so soon Wink ). 'Holy of Manifestations' seems to be the only epithet associated with Smenkhare.

If one were to be given to exuberance, this would provide proof positive linking Smenkhare (or the KV55 mummy anyway) to the Neferneferuaten name. As I am not, I do not. It is just an epithet, but a fairly distinctive one.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhkheprure Scenario - The Christmas Edition

Late in Year 14 or early Year 15 Akhenaten, perhaps pressured to do so, names a coregent. A new ediface was built in Akhetaten named the Coronation Hall for this occassion or the marriage of the new coregent. He selects his (half-?)brother, Smenkhare who adopts the prenomen Ankhkheprure. Perhaps as a homage to Akhenaten, he mimicks Akhenaten's own early years by selecting a prenomen, then upon ascension changes his birth name and then marries. In a show of Atenist devotion - perhaps required by Akhenaten - Smenkhare changes his name to Neferneferuaten. The selection may have been calculated to underscore his devotion to the Aten and seek favor with Akhenaten.

By Year 16 significant pressure is being applied to the throne to lighten up, perhaps as a backlash from the Great Excising. Akhkheprure is sent to Thebes as a goodwill ambassador to Amun, possibly against his will. This is supported by very few Smenkhare inscriptions outside Akhetaten (1 actually, a partial in Memphis) and very few Neferneferuaten inscriptions at Akhetaten (most are at Thebes); he is also said to have begun a tomb there.

Sometime in Year 17, Akhenaten dies or is murdered. If plague is not to account for the nearly simultaneous deaths of king and coregent, perhaps foul play is. Recognizing that Neferneferuaten was cut from the same cloth as Akhenaten, reform elements in the court may have moved on Akhkheprure. Support for foul play is offered not just by the coincidence of timing but in locations so far removed from each other. That they died at almost the same time is supported from the regnal years dates. The highest for Akhenaten is 17, the highest for Smenkhare is 3. Even if he did not start the coregency until year 15, Smenkhare could not have survived Akhenaten by more than a few months.

Whatever the cause, Akhkheprure is incapactited but still titular king. The Hittite king is told of the death of Akhenaten and sends EA41 to his coregent and putative successor ('Ana [Ana]huriya' - Say to Akhkheprure...). Akhkheprure may not have lived long enough for the letter to arrive. While incapacitated, his wife Meriaten, the most royal living and conscious person around, acts on his behalf using the name Akhetkheprure, perhaps with the epithet 'effective for her husband'. Possible but less likely is that EA41 was written to Meriaten-Ankhetkhprure during the regency.

Court and country are in disarray (ok, no evidence for this, but seems logical). Reform elements contend with Aten True Believers and as well there are factions for specific successor candidates. Akhetkheprure may have been isolated in Thebes at this time, though she may have returned to Akhetaten since there is at least 1 inscription found there.

Akhkheprure dies in fairly short order, still in Thebes. His burial is given shoddy treatment for several reasons. If he was mortally wounded or fell ill soon after Akhenaten, he likely was never able to perform the required burial rights to officially become king. (Even if Atenists did not subscribed to this belief, the majority of the rest of the kingdom did.) Almost certainly he did not live long enough for a coronation, and thus was never full Pharoah. Perhaps being in Amunist Thebes well away from Akhetaten his treatment is indicative of Atenist retribution. That Akhkheprure never achieved full regal status is supported by the next king ascending in Akhetaten, not Thebes.

Tut succeeds his brother Akhkheprure and marries Meriaten's younger sister, either to shore up his claim to the throne, or to preclude a rival or simply to get to work producing heirs. Meriaten-Akhetkheprure may have acted as his regent. As the eldest full royal person, she is a natural candidate. I am doubtful that she remained regent thru the entire minority of Tut since the amount of inscriptional evidence for Akhetkheprure seems scanty for the 4-5 year minority of Tut as well as the time she was 'effective for her husband'. On the other hand, she may have been on a short leash by reform elements or simply pushed aside after a time when reform elements gained momentum.


Speculations as to the motivations aside, there is evidence for most of the basic chronology. The weakest part might seem to be positing Meriaten as Akhetkheprure in so far as it calls for a male and female Neferneferuaten. However this was suggested as far back as 1978 by Krauss.

In _Das Ende der Amarnazeit_, he suggested that Meriaten may have used the feminine form of her husband's name. More recently, in 1997 (7 years before the current reconstruction results) in _The Armana Age: Western Asia_ the author makes several references to Meriaten as such. Eg "...so the prominent position of Meriaton continued until the end of the period of occupation of Akhetaten by the court, and did not end with the death of her husband and the start of the new reign. Indeed, it is certainly possible that Meriaten continued in power after her husband's death as regent for her brother or nephew Tutankhamun, possibly using the name Akhetkheprure." -p90).

That it is a queen effective for her husband using the fem form, seems far less odd than the alternatives; namely, Nefertiti as Akhkheprure or assuming either the Akhkheprure or the Akhetkheprure inscriptions are incorrect as to gender.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These periodic discussions always make me think. Something you said made me wonder 'why DO I assume Smenkhare==Neferneferuaten'. I thought about it then slapped myself upside the head because I dont assume it, I conclude it upon consideration of the evidence. Wink

A) Akhenaten acquires a coregent named Ankhkheprure Smenkhare who disappears from the record almost immediately. This is supported by the erection of the Coronation Hall in Akhetaten just before Smenkhare bursts onto the scene.
B) Ankhkheprure Smenkhare marries Meriaten. A set of partial royal cartouches from Memphis found with the "Coregency Relief" could only be that of Ankhkheprure Smenkhare Djserkheperu and Meriaten based on the the double khepru endings.
C) A stele from Akhetaten shows the names of Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten with Akhenaten given preference and Akhkheprure with the 'beloved' epithets.
D) Box in Tut's tomb names Neferkheperure, Ankhkheprure Neferneferuaten and his GRW Meriaten. The hieratic inscription is clear and requires no restoration; Akhenaten's name is given preference indicating he is the senior regent.

We know Akhenaten took a coregent (A), so C indicates the likelihood that the coregent changed one of their names. We know Meriaten married Smenkhare (B), so the box (D) confirms the marriage, the coregency (A and C) and offers strong support for the name change. Thus, I am comfortable in concluding with a fair amount of certainty that Smenkhare is Neferneferuaten.

No other explanations offerred conforms to all the evidence without supposing they say something they dont. The Reeves concoction of Nefertiti marrying Meriaten doesnt comport with B. Dodson's conclusion of Meriaten as Ankhkheprure doesnt comport with D, unless Meriaten marries herself. Casting Meriaten as GRW of Akhenaten, not Neferneferuaten, doesnt comport with B, nor does the order of the names support it.

Let the congregation say "Amen"! Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phew! Glad I noticed I hit the wrong button! Very Happy I almost edited your post instead of quoting it Laughing

VBadJuJu wrote:
.... Are you expecting to see a Smenkhare-Neferneferuaten inscription? Or maybe a depiction of him erasing Smenkhare and pencilling in "Neferneferuaten" Wink . Amenhotep IV and Akhenaten names dont appear together, so are they therefore different people?

The Amenhotep IV /Akhenaten identification is proven from several sources. Both are shown with wife Nefertiti and daughter Meritaten and there are other scenes that show they are the same individual.
Aldred even mentions the name change took place in the 10th month of the 5th year. So there is a pretty clear outline.

There are no such indications for Smenkhare / Neferneferuaten.
There are too many strange details to just identify them I think.
Smenkhare is clearly male while Neferneferuaten is sometimes given female epithets.

VBadJuJu wrote:

You seem to be assuming that Ankhkheprure and Ankhetkheprure were the same person, I don't (not as a certainty anyway).

No I don't assume that at all Very Happy
It is clear that there is an Ankhkheperure Smenkhare. There's an Ankhetkheperure (I don't really know who that refers to) and there is an Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten.
I don't think Ankhetkheperure can refer to Smenkhare. There are quite a few "typos" in hieroglyphic texts, but just adding a "t" seems an odd typo.
(Errors by omission or sign reversals seem more likely)

VBadJuJu wrote:
d) She disappears in Year 12 and Smenkhare shows up in Year 15. Two-Three years is an extraodinary period of time for her to go missing given her prominence to that point.

If she took up the position of coregent under the name Ankhekheperure Neferneferuaten, then this would fit nicely as 3 years is the highest known date for Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten Very Happy
On the other hand, you may be right and being dead could be the explanation...

VBadJuJu wrote:
Shhhh! Dont say that out loud! You'll ruin Reeves whole dig!

LOL Is that one still being persued? I have not heard anything about those excavations for several years now.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:
These periodic discussions always make me think. Something you said made me wonder 'why DO I assume Smenkhare==Neferneferuaten'. I thought about it then slapped myself upside the head because I dont assume it, I conclude it upon consideration of the evidence. Wink

Very Happy I don't think there is enough unambiguous evidence to justify drawing any kind of conclusion with certainty at this point.

There are a lot of contradicting pieces of "evidence".
I can think of a couple of scenarios that are possible.

And Smenkhare taking on the name Neferneferuaten is a possibility, but the use of that name and the use of female epithets is strange to say the least. And the inscription in the tomb of Meryre II together (possibly) with a wine docket would then indicate he changed from Smenkhare to Neferneferuaten and then back to Smenkhare?
Considering the wacky times it's not impossible, but I don't feel comfortable just assuming it at this point.

VBadJuJu wrote:
A) Akhenaten acquires a coregent named Ankhkheprure Smenkhare who disappears from the record almost immediately. This is supported by the erection of the Coronation Hall in Akhetaten just before Smenkhare bursts onto the scene.

The coronation hall indicates a coregent but doesn't really provide a name does it?
I'm not certain Smenkhare was on the scene this early in the game?

VBadJuJu wrote:
B) Ankhkheprure Smenkhare marries Meriaten. A set of partial royal cartouches from Memphis found with the "Coregency Relief" could only be that of Ankhkheprure Smenkhare Djserkheperu and Meriaten based on the the double khepru endings.

Smenkhare and Meritaten are also shown in the tomb of Meryre II.

VBadJuJu wrote:
C) A stele from Akhetaten shows the names of Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten with Akhenaten given preference and Akhkheprure with the 'beloved' epithets.

The question is if this has female or male epithets though.

VBadJuJu wrote:
D) Box in Tut's tomb names Neferkheperure, Ankhkheprure Neferneferuaten and his GRW Meriaten. The hieratic inscription is clear and requires no restoration; Akhenaten's name is given preference indicating he is the senior regent.

From what I have read the inscription is actually ambiguous. It is actually been suggested that this box mentions 2 people not 3.
The way the names transition from Neferneferuaten to Meritaten has had some people conclude that this actually refers to Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten Meritaten. Thereby actually identifying Neferneferuaten with Meritaten.
I think this inscription may be one of the sources for identifying Neferneferuaten with Meritaten.
I mentioned this in another thread Smile


VBadJuJu wrote:
The Reeves concoction of Nefertiti marrying Meriaten doesnt comport with B.

I think that theory has been thrown out now hasn't it?
I think this comes from the attempt to identify Smenkhare == Neferneferuaten == Nefertiti. She then would have had to marry her own daughter.

VBadJuJu wrote:
Dodson's conclusion of Meriaten as Ankhkheprure doesnt comport with D, unless Meriaten marries herself.

See above Very Happy
That inscription is not as clear as you think it is.

I don't see the evidence adding up the way you do.
I think the evidence is still too confusing to make a determination one way or the other at this point.

I still think that changing Smenkhare -> Neferneferuaten -> Smenkhare seems a bit convoluted.
And given that some of the inscriptions show female epithets makes me think that there being two different rulers named Ankheperure is as least as likely a scenario, if not more likely actually.

Your comment about Neferneferuaten being mentioned more in Thebes than in Akhetaten is interesting. I had wondered about that.
The inscription in the theban tomb mentions year 3 of Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten (according to Murnane) and mentions a temple of Neferneferuaten.

I don't know of any temples by Smenkhare. Would he have usurped the temples of Akhenaten there?
I don't know of any name changes in the Karnak temples that had been dedicated to Akhenaten and Nefertiti there.

I just looked at Redford's Vol 2 of the Kahenaten temple project.
They are inscriptions from the Rwd-mnw.
Only Amenhotep IV (later changed to Akhenaten) are mentioned along with Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti, Merytaten, Meketaten and Ankhesenpaaten.

If Smenkhare took over any temples it may have been some of the others?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
And Smenkhare taking on the name Neferneferuaten is a possibility, but the use of that name and the use of female epithets is strange to say the least
See below...

anneke wrote:
And the inscription in the tomb of Meryre II together (possibly) with a wine docket would then indicate he changed from Smenkhare to Neferneferuaten and then back to Smenkhare?
I am not sure what leads you to believe he changes his name back. The Meryre tomb - like the Memphis block - simply shows that for a time after ascension he continued to use the name Smenkhare.

anneke wrote:
Quote:
A) Akhenaten acquires a coregent named Ankhkheprure Smenkhare who disappears from the record almost immediately. This is supported by the erection of the Coronation Hall in Akhetaten just before Smenkhare bursts onto the scene.
The coronation hall indicates a coregent but doesn't really provide a name does it? I'm not certain Smenkhare was on the scene this early in the game?
No, the hall doesnt directly speak to the name change. But in a step by step manner it helps establish the time of Smenkhare's marriage and ascension. The hall was built around Year 15 which is just about or before the time that Smenkhare emerges and quickly marries and is named coregent.

That Smenkhare's name appears in royal cartouches indicates he is coregent and married Meriaten. Almost immediately, he disappears and co-regent Neferneferuaten was much more in evidence. From that, it is completely reasonable to suppose Smenkhare changed his name to Neferneferuaten.

anneke wrote:
Quote:
the names of Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten with Akhenaten given preference and Akhkheprure with the 'beloved' epithets.
The question is if this has female or male epithets though.
Male form, male epithets. See below.

anneke wrote:
Quote:
D) Box in Tut's tomb names Neferkheperure, Ankhkheprure Neferneferuaten and his GRW Meriaten. The hieratic inscription is clear and requires no restoration.
From what I have read the inscription is actually ambiguous. It is actually been suggested that this box mentions 2 people not 3.
Of course, anybody can raise questions about anything. The question is do they have an agenda and is the result credible? Carter seems to have been certain as to the translation. No less an egyptologist than Adolf Erman looked at it and was not moved to remark on anything incredible or odd about the inscription. Even Reeves who had his own quirky interpretation of the meaning didnt make mention of any syntactical irregularity.

Quote:
The king of Upper and Lower Egypt, living in truth the lord of two lands (Neferkheprure Waenre)| the son of Re living in truth, lord of diadems (Akhenaten)| great in his duration, the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, living in truth the lord of two lands (Ankhkeprure, beloved of Neferkheprure)| the son of Re living in truth, lord of diadems (Neferneferuaten, beloved of Waenre)| and the king's principal wife (Meriaten)| may she live eternally.
I guess "they" have problems with the 'and'.

Be that as it may, many very bizarre things must be true for 2 not 3 people to be named. The most unusual being:
A) Meritaten bearing 3 cartouches and 2 different birth names at the same time! Are we to suppose she used one name as GRW and another as co-regent?
B) A dowager queen both remarrying and taking on an active role (other than minority regent). Aside from Hatshepsut, this is unprecedented and even she didnt remarry.
C) That a coregent would also have the role of GRW, something which would seem to be quite beneath a coregent
D) It is also fair to ask why Meriaten has male names and epithets as Neferneferuaten, but is 'she' as GRW.
E) Smenkhare's burial is all the more shoddy since his brother-king and wife-king-successor and not the reformers left him that way.

These are so bizarre and convoluted that they barely merit a moment's consideration. Each is far more incredible than Smenkhare changing his birth name. Since there is nothing to suggest anything like the above happened, like most others I tend to think it says just what Carter said it did.

Quote:
I still think that changing Smenkhare -> Neferneferuaten -> Smenkhare seems a bit convoluted.
I dont know what supports the change back. I'd be very interested in knowing where that idea comes from. Very few of the Smenkhare or Neferneferuaten inscriptions are dated at all which would be needed to indicate (let alone prove) that he changed his name back.

Quote:
And given that some of the inscriptions show female epithets
One male form uses female (meryt) epithets.

There is a 'set' of 7 sealings (clay or wax, I forget) made from a single master which uses the female form of the name. There is a second instance of the female form (a ring or something). There is one instance of the male form using female epithets. That is the entirety of Ankhetkheprure evidence. The Meriaten-Ankhkheprure advocacy might want you to believe the kingdom was awash in female epithets, but it just isnt true.

I think the paucity of female forms/epithets is a substantial encumberance to the Meriaten-Ankhkheprure idea. It suggests that for a long time she was hiding her identity or that all the more numerous male forms are wrong. However, there is no enigma if we assume that things are as they appear: the female forms and epithets belong to a female (likely Meriaten) and the male forms are that of the coregent Akhenaten is known to have taken (Smenkhare). Thus, Smenkhare is almost certainly Neferneferuaten (I).

Giles (1997) suggests that Meriaten may have been Ankhetkheprure as regent to Tut "for a time". That evokes images of a clearly Atenist regent probably at odds with the reformers. If her regency lasted until Tut left Akhetaten and changed his name, it suggests a period perhaps twice as long as the coregency of Smenkhare, yet she left far less inscriptional evidence than he (and apparently had little effect). I think she may have excercised power for a time on behalf of an incapacitated Smenkhare and for whatever ceremonial roles related to Tut's ascension but only very briefly beyond that.

Quote:
makes me think that there being two different rulers named Ankheperure is as least as likely a scenario, if not more likely actually.
It is nice when these wind down with some small degree of accord Smile

It certainly doesnt require contorting the extant evidence in order to fit. I DO wish I could get a translation of the work which first suggested this.

Quote:
Your comment about Neferneferuaten being mentioned more in Thebes than in Akhetaten is interesting. I had wondered about that.
Neferneferuaten (not Nefertiti-N) is mentioned at Akhenaten once - the stele. Smenkhare is mentioned outside Akhetaten sparcely: once in Memphis for sure but that may be all. The here today - gone tomorrow nature of Smenkhare is one of the key indicators that he changed his name shortly after.

Based on the inscription locations, some speculate that the coregent was sent to Thebes to begin mending fences. Supporting the notion is that the bulk of the inscritions etc are there, he started a tomb there, apparently (re)opened an Amun temple and apparently died there. I think it possible that a backlash from the Great Excising may have forced Akhenaten to send him to Thebes.

Quote:
I don't know of any temples by Smenkhare.
LOL is that a trick? Ankhkheprure Neferneferuaten apparently was involved in reopening or rededicating one to Amun. There was a mention of an Aten temple in Memphis, but I am not sure if he is named in connection with it. I would not expect much in the way of temples etc from Smenkhare before he ascended.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to COA, the Coronation Hall was apparently built on rather unlevel gound. To level it, one side was built up with debris and rubbish and poorly done, indicating it was hastily built (shotgun wedding?); it is also cockeyed for some reason. Fairman et al also indicate it was one of the very last structures built in the city.

But, Smenkhare's name is all over the first few columns of the Hall.

Several mud bricks are impressed with his name in the area of the hall and his home (where he lived). From COA II, Plate LXXXIII (iii):


Any ideas what the epithet or other part says?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Quote:
C) A stele from Akhetaten shows the names of Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten with Akhenaten given preference and Akhkheprure with the 'beloved' epithets.
The question is if this has female or male epithets though.

Photos of these are in COAII along with some drawings of them (Plate CVII 2,3 and CVIII UC410)

In the 1930s photo, Akhenaten's prenomen cartouche is rather hard to read as it is right at the edge of a break and the stele appears crumbly there, though none of it is broken away. The names were not deeply engraved, but if the photo were larger or higher res (or both) it might not be so hard; his nomen is clear though. Both the cartouches of Akhkheprure are easier to read, though a larger photo would be nice. They read (Ankhkheprure mery Waenre)| and (Nefernefruaten, mery Akhenaten)|
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