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Is Oedipus Akhenaten??
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Amun
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found that interesting! (I read it after 4 years ! Smile )
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main benefit, IMO, from the books of Osman & Velikovsky are that they attract our attention toward interrestings documents we have overlooked in others books. As far as I’m concerned, their theories are just an excuse to make their name known. My decision was to resell the two books once they became useless.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anyone interested in speculations connecting Akhenaten, Moses and Oedipus, perhaps the best text is Sigmund Freud’s (1939) Moses and Monotheism.

Today’s fascinating post by wysingm on the Egyptian and African arched wooden harp reminded me also of the legend of Orpheus and his lyre. In Black Athena (1987), Introduction / Summary of Vol. III, Solving the Riddle of the Sphinx and Other Studies in Egypto-Greek Mythology, Bernal suggests that the name Orpheus comes by way of a Greek transcription of ME rpa (hereditary prince). On the other hand, others might wish to argue for wr ptH (Ptah is great) because of the connection with music and creativity.

Here we meet the thorny question of equivalence and the dSrt / desertus trap. Harpa (harp) is found in Old Norse (after c. 100AD), post-dating the Greek Orphic tradition considerably. The ME for harp is bnt.
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject: Beginning student, confused.... Reply with quote

Correct me if i am wrong.... I must be.... So do tell me how and why.

1. Akhenaten a heretic king built a city which was abandoned not too long after his death. He created a religion based on the sun disk Aten. First monotheist, father of King Tut.... Died naturally..... Perhaps as narcisistic as Hawass... New art that was weird and different appeared during his 'reign of religious monotheistic terror.' Later the people of egypt were so p*ssed off, they scratched his name off everywhere gave his statues 'nose jobs' and otherwise destroyed whatever they could that related to him.

2. Moses, biblical figure. Lead the israelites out of egypt parted waters, received a debatable number of commandments on stone tablets (Just dont ask me what they were. The only one i know is, Thou shalt not be a slacker when text books on ancient egypt have been assigned!) Ultimately he died. In reality, a total myth, likely 4 different people were responsible for all atributed to him. Biblical scholars claim there are like 4 distinctive voices. He apparently even narrates his own funeral. That is if you believe the bible.... Though i must say, i have yet to see a dead man write a narration of his own funeral..... I have yet to *see* a dead man at all.... I guess fiction is just more fun or something....

3. Oedipus, was a greek mythical man who wanted to escape his
fate' which was to kill his father and marry his mother. (Perhaps if he had opted to view his father more as a sperm donor as opposed to a father he would have had a less dificult time of it?) Ultimately it would seem he one upped his fate by killing his brother too...If i am not mistaken...

How do these 3 figures have *anything* to do with eachother? 2 being fiction, and one being a heretic (though how one can be a heretic in a region that has up till then always been polytheistic, escapes me.) Is there a point i have missed or does this post make no sense?
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Beginning student, confused.... Reply with quote

Mandi wrote:
Correct me if i am wrong.... I must be.... So do tell me how and why.
1. Akhenaten a heretic king built a city which was abandoned not too long after his death.
[...] First monotheist, father of King Tut...

Nothing really wrong here, but I'd add some brackets:

Akhet-Aten wasn't completely abandoned, it mainly lost its prime position.
Settlement in the region decreased heavily up to 15 years after Akhenaten's death.
But signs of population here stay noticeable up into the Roman era.

I won't comment on the "monotheist" although I feel "henotheist" is more appropriate.
Other gods were still revered during his reign, but to a considerably lesser extent.
Even in Akhet-Aten itself statuettes of Hathor, Isis, Bes and others were found.

As for being Tut's daddy... There are pro's and con's. Razz

Mandi wrote:
How do these 3 figures have *anything* to do with eachother?
Is there a point i have missed or does this post make no sense?

Beats me. I've never understood it either.

Gerard. wrote:
The main benefit, IMO, from the books of Osman & Velikovsky are that
they attract our attention toward interrestings documents we have overlooked in others books.

I think that's a good point though.
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moses and Monotheism is a very interesting if speculative book, with a lot of detail, and really needs to be read in its entirety. A brutally simplified synopsis might be this:

Freud's idea is that an Egyptian follower of Akhenaten called Moses introduced monotheism to the Jews, and that they later ganged up on and killed this man during a temporary reversion to paganism, which they later regretted. This means that Akhenaten is not a model for Oedipus, but for the tremendous significance of ‘m3at’ which lay behind the paternal authority of Laius, the murdered father.

Freud’s idea is that the murder of Moses led to a feeling of ‘collective guilt’ among the Jews, a shared but unspoken anxiety about their misbehaviour towards the ‘father’ of their religion, which he compares with the fate of Oedipus, who was similarly guilty and was required to expiate his crime.

Freud (who was interested in Egyptology, and had a small collection of artefacts which I think can be viewed somewhere on the web) completed the book in 1939 in England, after fleeing from Austria, where the Nazis had taken control, and he felt that the traditional Christian teaching about the responsibility of the Jews for the death of Jesus was not doing his people all that much good, either.
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moses was "X-mose" like Ra-mose(Ramesses), Djehuty-mose (Thutmose), Ahmose, etc.

There was also Ptahmose...

mose means: "son of" , "born of"

Moses = Moshe (in Hebrew)
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amarna was still populated until Roman times? I have never heard of this...I thought the site was completely deserted because the people didn't want anything to do with Akhenaten's reign any more. I have not seen anywhere that says that Amarna was still populated afterwards?

What exactly does 'henotheist' mean? I've heard that Akhenaten wasn't monotheist in the modern sense of the word (and indeed, many members here think that's an erroneous term for Akhenaten) and did worship other deities at times (didn't he also associate himself with Shu at one point?)

But it is well established that he was Tut's dad...or at least, it's the leading academic view that he was.
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isisinacrisis, here's a brief history of Aketaten, including affinity with Roman history:
http://catzappin.com/amarna/knowledge-state-of.asp
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, by the way--henotheist is the belief in one god without denying the existence of other gods.
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Osiris answered the other 2 points way more concise than I could ever have done...
There's only one point left: Tut's parentage. Usual Suspects are Smenkhkare, Akhenaten and Amenhotep III.
For all three very credible theories exist: none can at the moment be seen as most trustworthy.
Although everyone has his own fancy, I guess. My vote would go to Smenkh.

Btw there's a short piece on my site already about Akh as father to Tut:
http://www.enks.net/kings/Tutankhamen.html#2
The rest of the text, concerning Smenkh and AIII is still under construction.
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 4:16 pm    Post subject: I second Isisincrisis's statement Reply with quote

Acording to my text book the city Atenism and Akhenaten, was entirely thing not *immediately* abandoned, but by 20 years later a ghost town. I am sure there is some room for an argument of 25 years maybe 30 years later.... But my text books says it went entirely out of use and rather quickly after Akhenaten croaked. It says that is part of it's appeal is to see a city in full swing that just.... dies... And so much left behind there. It provides a very good view of what life was like in a very set small time frame.

As for the comparison with Moses getting killed by the israelites, intrigueing.... I have never heard of that one before. What an interesting persopective definately worth reading about when i have the time.

As for Freud, Just cuz the guy dreamed about having sex with crocodiles, sheep, his mother and sister and likely his aunt uuncle and father as well as cats and dogs.... The possibility that his most secret dream in life was to be an embalmer in ancient egypt for the 'perks' does not seem unlikely. But i would say that his sexual interest in dead mummified cats people and enything else once living hardly argues for his interest in anccient egypt itself. Really it seems an argument for the fact that the guy was a sick freak and a total pervert. Ofcourse i have not studied him. I have hjust heard a few of his theories all of them related to sex. One might wonder though if i am correct that he wanted to be an embalmer for the perks what that might say about him.....(In accordance with how he himself likely would have explained someone else with such ambitions. Seriously, i would not be surprised if someday it is discovered that he was a serial killer kidnapping torturing raping either before or after death women from his general area. I wouldn't even be shocked if it is discovered by a whole bunch of 'mummified' women somewhere buried in some basement where he lived. He creeps me out.)
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
Amarna was still populated until Roman times? I have never heard of this...I thought the site was completely deserted because the people didn't want anything to do with Akhenaten's reign any more. I have not seen anywhere that says that Amarna was still populated afterwards?

What exactly does 'henotheist' mean? I've heard that Akhenaten wasn't monotheist in the modern sense of the word (and indeed, many members here think that's an erroneous term for Akhenaten) and did worship other deities at times (didn't he also associate himself with Shu at one point?)

But it is well established that he was Tut's dad...or at least, it's the leading academic view that he was.


I ade a little pdf on it.

It is mainly just pictures and images of roman amarna

http://conorp.unixpod.com/Info_romans_amarna.pdf
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conorp.
Thanks for posting that pdf. It's much more informative concerning Roman ruins that mine.
Mandi,
Egyptian presence in Aketaten lasted, as you say, about 20+ years, but the site was inhabited up until Roman times. (although not as heavily as the Egyptians)
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
Conorp.
Thanks for posting that pdf. It's much more informative concerning Roman ruins that mine.
Mandi,
Egyptian presence in Aketaten lasted, as you say, about 20+ years, but the site was inhabited up until Roman times. (although not as heavily as the Egyptians)


No problem at all Smile
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