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How did he die?
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paulst
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject: How did he die? Reply with quote

Reading your posts about Tutankhamun, heqaiunushema,Nebkheperure or whatever else you want to call him. One thing that really interests me is how he died? Some books say he was murdered, while others say he died because of an accident, what do you think happened? Im not so sure that he was murdered Smile paul
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye did it! Prove me wrong! Twisted Evil
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a report concerning the CT scans done in Jan 2005 here:
http://guardians.net/hawass/press_release_tutankhamun_ct_scan_results.htm

As usual it seems that the experts disagree Very Happy

It seems clear that no one whacked him in the head as some people previously proposed.

It is still strange that an otherwise apparently healthy individual dies suddenly at the age of ca 19 years.

I don't see how we would be able to tell the difference between an accident or foul play though.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pop Culture notion of a murder proven by the bone fragment evident in the X-Ray is almost certainly false. The skulls were coated with a resin to preserve them and the bone fragment is on the outside of that which indicates the bone frag was dislodged as a result of the embalming process not foul play.

Other possibilities are:
1) Evidence of a subdural hematoma at the very base of the skull. The location is not consistent with a typical fall in which case you usually hit the back of your head, not the base. Unless the fall happens with a protuberance behind you like some steps or a chariot.

2) There is a blemish on his cheek for which there are numerous explanations. I havent read a great deal about this, but one notion is that an arrow entered there and exitted or lodged at the base of the skull. If true it could be the result of a hunting accident, hunting "accident" or in battle.

3) The Xrays show a recent leg injury. Infection may have gotten him.

4) There is good evidence a plague was about at the time.

Time and the embalming process having an affect on the corpse leaves it all pretty circumstantial.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it happened so long ago and, like you said, the mummification process was sometimes pretty sloppy, so it's hard to make a concrete reason as to how he died just by examining the body. What I look at is Aye's behavior after Tut's death; it's surely not that of a loyal servant taking the role as king because he was the only one available. It was more like that of a power hungry old man. You can be power hungry and not a murderer, but, in those times, it was the only way you could get power. This way of getting power in other cultures was very common and I don't think that the Egyptians where immune to it.

I still think he did it.
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paulst
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like the only thing we can be certain of ,is he died Laughing Laughing paul
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paulst wrote:
Looks like the only thing we can be certain of ,is he died


LOL Considering some people's love for conspiracy theories, I wouldn't be surprised if someone were to propose that Tutankhamen faked his own death, had someone else buried and lived out his life sipping wine on the French Riviera Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

imanobody wrote:
What I look at is Aye's behavior after Tut's death; it's surely not that of a loyal servant taking the role as king because he was the only one available.
Aside from marrying Mrs Tut, what leads you to that conclusion? It looks peculiar, but as the last full royal blood the only candidate who wouldnt marry her to fortify their claim would be someone with a magical sign from Amun or someone with the full backing of the military.

What does imply foul play is that it was Horemheb who seems to have been the chosen successor with the title King's Deputy, and that when he did finally ascend he trashed Aye so completely.

Yet another enigma...
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Ankhesenamun15
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, there are so many theories about Tutankhamun's death, however there are also so many years between then and now, and how can anybody ever be sure. Th only things that can be ruled out are poison and disease, none were found. As for the scan which showed a fracture behind his left ear there are many theories, one the young prince was murdered, second that he fell off his chariot, and thirdly he had a brain tumour.

If it was murder, for instance a crack over the head, why in such a place, why nearer the neck, why not right on the top of the head? It would make more sense. And as for murder by a bash on the head, that is not the best method, most murders were by sword or knife, far gone were the times when clubs were used. However, it is possiblt that if killed in his sleep he recieved this deadly blow, as the Egyptians slept on stone headrests rather than pillows. His head coukld have been lifted up and then cracked back down. Yet in such as case, there would be more than this fracture on just the one side. i did use to think his uncle and greedy advisor Ay had done it to. He did have motive, and he did kill Akenaten. Also the mummification was a shambles, and done hastily and Tutankhamun was buried in Ay's tomb pretty quickly.

The chariot...well this one i do not believe, they say the blow could be connected to an accidental fall from his chariot. There is so little evidence to support this claim, only that the king's chariot was in parts in his tomb. This is only because they could not fit the chariot in the tomb entrance in its full state, so they dismantled it and just put it in dismantled. Besisdes how would you fall in such a way to match the injury. think about it, again if anything it would be the top sides of your head, or your face, the shoulder would block such an injury occuring.

Everybody knows that Tutankhamun was a sickly child, partly lame in his left leg which meant he walked with a cane, he may have had what his father Akenaten had, marfans disease, or even leukemia. What later x-rays and scans have proved is that the whole is surrounded with calcium deposits, and that the whole may have been made in conjunction with removal of a brain tumour. Not a very strong case.

However, this fracture may not have even been his course of death, because like i said it showed calcium deposits, showing some healing. Maybe he did it when he was younger, or maybe it was his cause of death, maybe he was injured, it healed slightly but infection got him that is why it is not fully healed!!
Like i said unless something advanced is made someday and finds it all out, its pretty much guess work! Very Happy
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
It seems clear that no one whacked him in the head as some people previously proposed.


From the article: "In answer to theories that Tutankhamun was murdered, the team found no evidence for a blow to the back of the head, and no other indication of foul play." Horemheb has an inscription somewhere that says something like 'and dont forget what the evil foriegners did to our Tut'. From that, those so inclined to believe in conspiracies can find support in the various injuries apparent in the mummy. In reality, H could have been simply referring to the introduction of plague (because nothing so unclean could never come from a good Amun-worshipping Egyptian!!!).

I wasnt aware that the CT scan had pretty much ruled out the hematoma thing apparent in the old Xray. Looks like the leg/infection thing garners the most agreement.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhesenamun15 wrote:
If it was murder, for instance a crack over the head, why in such a place, why nearer the neck, why not right on the top of the head? It would make more sense.
In the report anneke posted, the experts agreed there was no evidence for a whack on the head.

Ankhesenamun15 wrote:
i did use to think his uncle and greedy advisor Ay had done it to. He did have motive, and he did kill Akenaten.
What is the evidence for Aye killing Akhenaten? Did he also kill Smenkhare?

Quote:
Also the mummification was a shambles, and done hastily and Tutankhamun was buried in Ay's tomb pretty quickly.
The CT report says the opposite:
"Embalming Process. The team has concluded, based on the identification of at least five different types of embalming material and the many episodes of its introduction to the body and cranial cavity, that great care was taken in the mummification of this king. This counters previous arguments that the body of the king was prepared hurriedly and carelessly."

Quote:
However, this fracture may not have even been his course of death, because like i said it showed calcium deposits, showing some healing.
The article says otherwise: "They note that this type of fracture, unlike most of the others, is possible in young men in their late teens, and argue that it is most likely that this happened during life. There is no obvious evidence for healing (although there may be some present, and masked by the embalming material). Since the associated skin wound would still have been open, this fracture would have had to occur a short time, days at the most, before death."

YMMV
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imanobody
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry VBadJuJu, but my spidey senses are really tingling on this one.

Ankhesenamun15 wrote:
he did kill Akenaten.

There you go!

Didn't Aye have the son of a foreign king killed because he was coming to Egypt to marry Tut's wife? She asked for this marrage which sounds a bit odd don't you think? Almost like she knew something.

Not all assassines hit their target exact dead center where they thought they would. Maybe the person was charging him and Tut turned his head while he was trying to get out of the way. Maybe that's why Tut lived a few more days, because he caught the person, but was injured in the fight, or else, I would suppose, the guy would've repeatly smash his head in to make sure the job was done. I don't think that Aye killed Tut with his own hands. He probably hired someone that he knew.

I don't know if I'm right. I just know that he did it. Twisted Evil
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankie15 wrote:
Everybody knows that Tutankhamun was a sickly child, partly lame in his left leg which meant he walked with a cane, he may have had what his father Akenaten had, marfans disease, or even leukemia. What later x-rays and scans have proved is that the whole is surrounded with calcium deposits, and that the whole may have been made in conjunction with removal of a brain tumour.

The recent CT scan disproves the idea of him being a sickly child. In their words, "He was a normal, healthy young man..." who just happened to die! There was no evidence of any disease, no evidence of any brain tumor removal, no unusual calcium deposits. The biggest mystery, in my opinion, is his missing sternum. It was probably done by Carter in his search for jewelry, but the possiblity remains that is was some type of injury or embalming practise.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

imanobody wrote:
Didn't Aye have the son of a foreign king killed because he was coming to Egypt to marry Tut's wife? She asked for this marrage which sounds a bit odd don't you think? Almost like she knew something.


I dont see how that 'convicts' Aye of Tut's murder. If the kingship is his goal, why does Aye wait for the back and forth of letters, the visit of an envoy and then the actual arrival of the prince to act rather than just marry her outright at the start? How does the widow exchange letters and entertain an envoy without anyone finding out and/or nipping it in the bud?

The only thing to gain from the putative Zanannza murder is war with Suppiluliumas. The person who benefitted most from that war was Horemheb. And of course anyone who recalled the tales of the Hyksos domination might bristle at the thought another foreign ruler being invited to take the throne and given the means, they might take action on their own or give orders.

There are various notions of what went on, but I think the idea of Mrs Tut acting alone and the offer being legitimate is slightly less likely. For instance, Aye may have insctructed her to send the letter and expected he would be some sort of grand vizier for them. Horemheb finds out and appalled, he kills the prince and takes to the field. Upon his return 4 years later, he deposes the treasonoius Aye. This draws support from the way Horemheb treated Aye after his death.

Alternatively, Aye and Horemheb conspire on the letter, using the naive Ankhessenamun. They are aware that indolence had lost chunks of the Empire to the Hittites and are anxious to reclaim it which will help fortify any claims they wish to make to power. In agreement, Aye will get the throne, Hormenheb the war, the army and is named sucessor.

In general, the Dahamunzu affaire sounds more like a setup and state action connected with elements of traditional Egypt who probably wanted to win back their lost empire. Or as Aldred notes, it could be the result of human stupidity and the capriciousness of nature.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:
imanobody wrote:
Didn't Aye have the son of a foreign king killed because he was coming to Egypt to marry Tut's wife? She asked for this marrage which sounds a bit odd don't you think? Almost like she knew something.


I dont see how that 'convicts' Aye of Tut's murder.

I do, it shows that he has a history of murder.

VBadJuJu wrote:
Aye may have insctructed her to send the letter and expected he would be some sort of grand vizier for them

So your going to fight my assumptions with your own? This could get interesting. Razz

VBadJuJu wrote:

Alternatively, Aye and Horemheb conspire on the letter, using the naive Ankhessenamun. They are aware that indolence had lost chunks of the Empire to the Hittites and are anxious to reclaim it which will help fortify any claims they wish to make to power. In agreement, Aye will get the throne, Hormenheb the war, the army and is named sucessor.

Now just throw in - "and by the way, we kill Tut" and you've got it pretty much figured out. Laughing

He had to motive, the means, and the opportunity... case closed. We're not talking about 'aliens landing in AE to distribute the latest Snoop Dog CD' theory here, we're talking about something that happened ALL the time back then. I'll admite, it didn't happen much in Egypt, but it DID happen. I would be willing to bet that both Aye and Horemheb were in on it and then Aye double crossed Horemheb some how. That would explain his hatred for a person that he knew and worked with for so long.

So lets see Tut JUST HAPPENS to "die" Rolling Eyes and the prince sent to marry Mrs Tut JUST HAPPENS to get killed at the border Rolling Eyes ..............AND AYE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT Shocked

We've already heard that Akenaten could've been killed by him. Don't you think it's odd that a lot of people just seem to dissappear during Aye's time? Maybe he has a bigger killing record then even I think he has.

But I don't want to get too far out there, so I'll stick with Tut's "death". violent1
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